0:00 Background to the 11 plus
6:57 What is the 11 plus?
14:32 Catchment areas
18:07 Who takes it and why?
24:03 Subjects
28:39 Exam boards
40:49 Preparing
59:18 Difficulty
1:01:47 Consistency

Background to the 11 plus

The Education Lounge Podcast. So, there are over 4,000 secondary schools in England, I believe. Not the the whole of UK, only England. Um and there are only 163 grammar schools out of those 4,000. Mhm. And to go into a grammar school, you need to have passed your 11 plus. Now, that was set up, that system was set up in the 1950s when they brought in this whole new uh education system um and the changes

They brought in cuz they wanted to bring in effectively streaming. So, what it was um if you put it into context about what life was like in the 50s, you know, you had a lot It was It was an Expanding economy. You had um plenty of factories and obviously a booming economy where they needed factory workers and they needed managers for those factory Workers and they needed senior staff. Um so, what it was actually uh suggested by I I forget the name of the psychologist, but it was suggested by a psychologist, I believe.

Um All right. Social psychologist, I think he was. Um that you couldn’t really teach intelligence. That was the the thinking at that time. And so the schools were effectively set up so that you had a proportion of children who would effectively be academic uh and and go to grammar schools And to be uh and and really it would be those children who would then go on to universities, get their degrees, and become engineers and doctors and all the rest of it. And then you had the

I mean, comprehensives came a lot later, but then you had the technical colleges and the non-academic where uh children would often leave I think by the age of 16 and go on to do Apprenticeships. So you’d get that stream of workers who were plumbers and electricians and The vocational. trade tradesmen, really. Um and then and then there was yet another stream which died very, very quickly. Now, the interesting thing is they then uh the BBC did a really brilliant series on this about how the school system

Has evolved um from Victorian times. Really. Uh to to the early 2000s, I think it was. And what they looked at was that they’d go into a classroom and set up a Classroom. Um and actually film what happened in that classroom. So not only did you have this tripartite system um But what they did within that system was you had the the grammar school children would be tested. In the majority of cases, they’d be tested. But there were some schools where you

Didn’t actually have to take the test. So, for example, personal example, we I came into this country in 1972. And so the majority of my secondary In fact, all of my secondary education was done in this country. Now, the first two years I spent in one of the biggest comprehensive schools in in South London, Catford. And then we moved to Kent. And the the teachers report the the teachers’ report went to the new to the local council. And I think I had to sit a mini test. I vaguely remember sitting something.

But the weight was mostly on the teachers’ recommendation as to, “Well, she’s quite academic.” I’m assuming this is what it said. “She’s quite academic, so she’d be better off in a grammar school than the local comp.” And so they automatically the council automatically put me into a grammar school. And the jump from the work that we did, the jump from the comprehensive to the grammar was massive. Now, I Joined in year year eight, I want to say. Yes, because the first two years were Catford Girls. And then we moved house. Um So, year nine, even. I must have joined

In year nine because they put me in the Latin class even within the grammar school the classes were split into different languages. They put me in the Latin class but said you’re too late to take Latin. So instead you can do you can try out Italian and you can try out German. Well, I didn’t get on with German at all but I did get on really well with Italian. And they were really good. They gave me sort of one-to-one lessons for a little while. And so it was very it was it was it was a it was a this is a very personal experience as to the difference between the comprehensive school and the grammar school.

So grammar schools technically go to go back to the point existed to prepare children for a particular type of role and a particular type of job that needed a lot more sort of academics than The non-grammar schools. And so that’s why the 11 plus was set up. So why is the 11 plus today then? Uh Well, what’s your experience of it and then and then I’ll I’ll tell you what I think the 11 plus what the 11 plus is today.

What is the 11 plus?

What are the As a tutor what is your experience of it? Um pressure Yeah, it’s a lot of pressure. I think uh Yeah, it’s it’s Well, first of all it is is different to if you go to a grammar school and you compare it to the comprehensive it it’s it’s extremely different because they they select the top like 10 5 to 10%. Yeah. They use bell curve to select. Yeah. So, you’ve got Ob- obviously, if you’ve got more able children generally in in the class, that tends to pop the standards overall

Within the school. Um and then it means the teachers don’t have a as wide a range of ability to teach to. So, it means that they can do more advanced work earlier on. So, for if you were a a bright student who went to a state school, you might find that the your school experience is sort of less um It it doesn’t push you enough. Is that We’ve had We’ve had quite a few students who’ve like very very intelligent state school children and they’ve gone to a state school and haven’t really been pushed that much. It’s Whereas you know, if you go to a grammar school,

Then you’re more likely to be pushed. Well, there’s two points there. It’s interesting that you say that. There’s two points there. It’s partly it’s what it’s we why we teach the way we teach in our centers. You know, we teach in small Groups because the cohort that the child is working with makes a big difference, you know. Mhm. There is, you know, every every child has an innate competitiveness. Uh and I know we don’t push it, but it’s there and you can see it. And it definitely makes a difference working as a small group. And so, if you’re then thinking the more academic children are pulled

Away into a grammar school, it’s Does that mean that because they’re in a group of children um that are very similar to them Academically that they will perform they will get better results than if they’re in a mixed comprehensive where they are you know, there’s there are maybe two or three children who are at the top end And then you’ve got other who’ve got all sorts of issues and the teacher is having to deal with all of that. We had a I was talking to a parent last week who is a teacher. Um

And it was a general conversation and she brought it up and she said in their school, I don’t know what school it is, but in their school um they get told off If they focus on pushing the brighter children. The aim is to bring the bottom up. And I mean, reading between the lines, I’m assuming that means that if you’re a bright child, you’re basically left to your own devices. So Well, I’d say I’d say there’s two neglected groups in in school that stand out and those are the Both extremes. Yeah, both extremes. So you got the the ones who just cannot keep up cuz it’s moving too fast cuz you cater into the middle. You cater into the

Majority. Yeah. Although to be honest, they’re obviously they got more learning support and stuff like that. And then you got the ones at the top end who never seem to Well, the teacher would never say at like a parent’s evening or something like that, “Oh, your child Could be pushed in this direction.” and stuff like No, no, they will never say They’ll say, “No, they’re doing fine. They’re they’re meeting They’ve exceeded expectations. So we’ve we’ve done our job basically. So that that’s what you find is a lot of the time people come to us Because of because of those two reasons. So people falling behind and also which is one extreme and then you’ve got the other extreme. They’re not being pushed enough because or they’re a bit bored in school. Yes. That was definitely the case with me

Yes. in primary school cuz I went to a state primary school and it was only cuz I went to a forest which is it’s not exactly the same as a grammar school but it is selective and fee paying. So you you do You do get um I did find the jump pretty big. So I was I felt I was behind for a long period of time having been at the top in my previous school. I had exactly the same experience but With comprehensive to grammar rather than um state um state private to independent secondary. But I had exactly the same experience and I really struggled all the way through just to keep up.

Yeah. I was I I was in set three for maths and well, there were four sets. Mhm. I was in set three for maths and it took me till uh sixth form to get to the top set. But by all accounts the the maths Teacher that you then had, I don’t know whether he’s still there. I don’t even remember his name but uh we were having a conversation recently about this but the maths teacher you had was not um the pushiest or the You know, he he basically I think that was that was project. Oh okay. It might have been both. We’re in different Oh, were you? Okay. Okay. No, I had I had really good math teachers. Oh, did you? I I’ve got to say they were all all excellent.

Um Mine mine weren’t. Yeah like Some of Some of the ones I was in. That That’s part of the reason why I managed to Mhm. do well is because they they understood what I needed to work on. So With with grammar schools though, I don’t think what I’ve heard from So, our math teacher went to a grammar school. And We’ve had several tutors who’ve gone to grammar schools. we’ve had quite a few tutors and they they haven’t liked at least the one in Redbridge. So Ilford County. Their their experience of it was interesting because they they’d say like the the the students um

It it wasn’t a necessary nurturing environment. No, it’s not at all. But it is competitive. So It’s ridiculously competitive. in this area, there’s So, the Redbridge area it there’s only two grammar schools.

Catchment areas

Mhm. And boys and girls separate. And you’ve got Woodford County and Ilford County. But then in some areas, you’ve got a if anything a glot of grammar schools. But even then they’re still not that many. yeah. So, Kent Kent has a quarter of all grammar Schools are in Kent. Is that 20’s It’s like 26 or something like that. It’s It’s more than that, I think. Is it? Oh. Um There’s a There’s so many in Kent, but then there’s It’s It’s That’s why they call it a postcode lottery, isn’t it? So if you happen If you’re If you choose To move to a certain place and you’re within catchment of loads of different grammar schools. So, catchment is the selective area. You can you you’ve just got um a much better chance of your child getting into a grammar school

Because it’s less it’s less competitive. It’s still competitive no matter where you are. I mean Redbridge Redbridge say they do. I’ve never known a child out of out of catchment to get in. Um They they know technically they do, but Because they need so many refusals from people within catchment, no one in practical Ah. Um just gets in. So yeah, we’ve had a few people from outside catchment who’ve passed, but then because they’re outside catchment Anyway, or just like it could be Like a road. It could be a road or it could be one parent if you remember that if they were they were on So the boundary went through the middle of the road. Oh. And they were on the wrong side of the

Road. Oh yeah, yeah, cuz you sometimes get the different postcodes as well. Like yeah. So with all of all of this, why would Why why what’s the benefit of of putting your child through Through the 11 plus program? Yeah. Or into grammar schools. Well both. Yeah. Well, why would you prepare your child for it? Okay, so again it’s an anecdotal Well, it’s not anecdotal. We get this all the time. Again, the same parent I was talking to when her daughter started with us in year four. We we’ve we’ve been working with her um for maybe six months now. She really really really struggled in

Maths. Um Compared to the rest of the children, she’s still not overly confident in her maths. She still probably comes near the bottom of the group. But now she goes into school and she says when when they give her work, she says, “I’ve done this. I know how to do this. I’m bored with this.” Um and she achieves the marks in school. So, the benefit of of working through the 11-plus program is not just, “Oh, my child has or has not passed the 11-plus.” It it filters all the way through into

Various areas. It’s not just about academic. It’s also confidence. So, yeah, that I mean, that’s true in terms of the course that we run. We always say that performing in school should be the first thing and 11-plus should be like a Bonus. But for those people that why would you put them apart from like obviously becoming better at the different subjects, what is the benefit of taking the 11-plus exam and trying to get into a So, for the children that generally get

Who takes it and why?

Into um grammar schools, something, you know, it’s in the 80s or 90s that go on to universities, 80 or 90% that go on to university. Um whereas in state schools, this was an Article written by I want to say the Guardian about 2 years ago. In state school, it was something like 46, I want to say percent, but it was in the 40s that went on To university. Now, university is not the be-all and end-all. Mhm. The problem is that the majority of work of companies ask for a degree. Yeah.

And so, it’s to secure your chances, really, for a better job and a a better paid job, at the end of the day. I I would argue that it’s not the grammar school that does that. I think it’s the selective It It’s like if you It’s a bit like the Harvard argument. So, why would you go to Harvard? It’s because they select. And Jordan Peterson was talking about this. Why the advantage of going to a Harvard isn’t the education you receive is the It’s the fact that you’ve been to Harvard. You’ve been you cuz you’ve Already been pre-selected and you’re If you go to Harvard, you’re already very clever. Yes. So, companies can look at that and go, “Oh, they’ve been to Harvard. So, they must be quite intelligent. And there must be some kind of advantage to that in regards to grammar school.”

There’s some kind of advantage, but employers aren’t going to look and say, “Oh, she he or she went to grammar school.” And thus, they can do the job. Yeah. Yeah. They’re They’re going to look at the university. But but then it’s within the child’s ability to get in. So, they’ve got some Level of competence. But But you see, I Yeah. Yeah, I I completely agree with you, but you know, that competence is not a natural competence, which is what the 11-plus was originally set up for. It was never set up it’s both. Like as in it has it has There there is there is an element cuz intelligence is hereditary. Yes. And there’s a Knowledge isn’t. Yes. And within intelligence, they say that you can only deviate something like

10% Yes. either side. Yeah. You can only Well, the education received can only make about 10% difference either either side. So, if you have a lack of it, it won’t If you have a lack of knowledge, then it may It doesn’t actually affect your intelligence level. It just No, it doesn’t. It It just means that you will appear less intelligent. And also, you know, with the 11 plus, when the exams were originally set up, they were set up in the context or quite Rightly in the context of an English 1950s lifestyle, a middle-class lifestyle. So, some of the words that are you were used, some of the um types of questions they were

Asking. You know, who in the middle of London wants to know what a a baby A swan is called. Yeah. They don’t It’s I mean, how relevant is it? It’s general knowledge. Yeah. But, it’s not relevant. Certainly not the tradesperson who Well exactly. Well, and then they’ve they’ve done a study, haven’t they? Don’t know who, but some someone did a study using sort of um on blue-collar workers and white-collar workers. And it was just the level of lexis or vocabulary Yes.

That people are receive, or that children receive every day. And I think the difference was like 800 words a day difference. I’m not surprised at that at all. in terms of what the child is exposed to. So, it’s kind of I mean, it it sort of is a bit classist. It’s extremely classist, actually. Yeah, it is. It is very much. And then something that I’ve always found is the the one of the biggest issues that you have in preparing a child, and no Matter how intelligent they are is their level of vocabulary. Which is is more difficult when you have children from like immigrant families and and they where they don’t even speak English at home and then they bring them

Here Yeah. and expect us to teach them Yes. from that level up to Yeah. Cuz like it’s about a literacy level that and literacy levels I don’t think are purely determined just well I think They’re mainly determined by your environment. Things like non That’s why they they put in those other components like nonverbal reasoning but But you see when they originally set up the non that exam, they said oh this is Not teachable. Yeah. This is innate intelligence which has since been proven wrong. Can we we haven’t actually spoken about that. Can we run through the different components? And then maybe the different boards and as well.

Subjects

Yeah. Well, let’s start with the different components of the exam and then we can talk about Mhm. what um what the different boards Okay. So So you mentioned nonverbal. So there are four components basically. Yeah. Maths, English, verbal reasoning, nonverbal reasoning. And this is traditionally how they were set up. So verbal reasoning by the sheer name is making sense of Or decoding in some way, shape or form using words. So they’re they’re like logic. Yes. Like questions. But logic using words mostly and maybe a bit of maths. Well, and letters individual letters

Rather than It’s not always just words. They’ve got Yeah. letters as well. Yeah. And I I think they they they drew some of this out of you know, the the how the spies worked in the Second World War. Decoding. Yeah, there was um There’s one behind me somewhere. Um Where is it? There. If the code drawn is c p x x s I What is the code for exist? Okay. So, if you’re working from co- let words to code you really go from d to c, r to p, and copy that pattern across to find the Yes. Or you And sometimes you’ve got to work backwards. Yes. Yeah. So, that was verbal reasoning. So, ciphers and stuff like that.

Yes. Yeah. And non-verbal reasoning is is really dealing with It’s diagrammatic. diagrammatical and and shape sort of shapes and their movements and their layering and their coloring and their Positioning, that sort of thing. So so you use these things like um symmetry and Yes. rotational symmetry, number of sides, and But then we’ve also got um the 3D non-verbal. So, that’s all Two-dimensional. And then is it 2016 roughly? Yes. When C um we’ll talk about it in a minute brought out a new type of non-verbal. With plans and elevations, you mean? Yeah. Cubes and Yeah, so so 3D

So, that’s that’s So, non-verbal is really mathematically based even though Mhm. there are no numbers there. Yeah. I I would say yeah, non-verbal is mathematically based in terms of how you think, and verbal is kind of a mixture of Math and English. It’s predominantly English. But the way you have to think is mathematical. Yes, absolutely. You have to be logical, you have to be orderly. Yeah. I I mean, generally you you you there are exceptions, but if they If they’re good at maths problems, then they will have non-verbal skills. They they will have some more aptitude for non-verbal, what you find. Yeah. But it’s not always the case, though. No. No, it’s not. Um

So so they’re the four components that make up the 11 plus, and depending on who sets the exam, will depend on how it’s done. So, for example, traditionally it was company called NFER, the National Federation Foundation of Education, something or other. Research. Yeah. Uh which was then taken over by GL. I’ve got no idea what GL stands for. Um Granada Learning. Granada Learning. want to say. Um And so, traditionally, what they did was you’d get one full paper of X number of questions, usually something like 80, 79, 80 questions.

On on one subject? On one subject. So, you’d have a maths paper Um yeah, an English paper that would include uh grammar, punctuation, compre- understanding, that’s a comprehension, uh but no writing. Now, we’ll come to That in a minute as to why no writing. Um Then you got the got the verbal. Yeah. A mixture of style of questions, and the same with non-verbal. Kent st- uh use a modified version of that now. So, what’s that Let Let So, this is the example, isn’t it? This is This is the borough. So what? So, the exam boards are as follows. Let’s Let’s make it very clear. with Kent, so Kent. So, Kent uh So So, normally what happens is uh council issues out a contract

Exam boards

To a company that lasts X number of years. Um and what used to happen was every every council used GL. So, it was quite straightforward, nothing very complicated. But then you got breakouts and um Buckinghamshire I want to say Buckinghamshire used to use only maths and verbal reasoning. And what they found was Uh the majority of children that actually passed the 11 plus near enough scored 100% on their verbal reasoning because it was practiced so much. Because what they what GL I don’t know

Whether this is how they still do it. I’m assuming they do. They have a bank of questions and they pull out from the bank of questions. So, you know, over the years every question has been seen. Yeah. And so, what they found was That most children were achieving nigh on 100% on their um verbal reasoning paper. And so, the only criteria was your boundaries, where you lived, and your Catchment, and how good you were at maths. So then um CEM come came along. CEM has now been bought out by somebody else. But it was University of Durham

Uh that that set this up. And why were they introduced? Because they wanted to make it tutor-proof. Yeah, they wanted to increase social mobility to some ex- well, Well, that was the that that that’s Always been the argument anyway. Yeah, but they they thought the the core skills of math and English are too so too easy to teach and thus if you have access to expensive tutors and things like that then you’ve got some kind of a Big advantage. So, they wanted to bring in more like non-verbal and That’s it. That’s all you Yeah, something that’s hard it was harder to teach. to teach but not impossible. So, so if you if you then compare the borough of Kent

Kent had still do use GL although they’ve modified to work similar similarly to the CM paper. thrown in a few a few things in from GL into the Yeah. But they still had the four papers. They were longer papers so they still had Maths, English, verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning and then out of catchment uh would be an essay that a child would have to write. And that essay would only be used if there was a tie and there was only one Place. And they had to decide between two children. Then that essay would be your your final criterion. Um so they were still using 25% times four verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning,

Maths and English. So, what CM have but they were individual papers and what CM have done is they’ve basically combined into two papers all four subjects. The the other difference was that you Have with GL you had 69, 70, 80 questions and you had an hour or whatever it was to do the paper and you were basically just left to it. What CM did was To apply greater pressure. Realistically, if that’s I mean, that’s how it’s translated, even if that’s not what their initial intention was. They’ve split it into split each paper into sections. So, you only have

10 minutes to do one section and then 5 minutes to do another section. And then they can adjust the timing depending on how difficult or easy each cohort finds it. So, what we’ve found is over the over time, Where each non-verbal question was generally allowed about 30 seconds a question when you average it out. Yeah. It’s now dropped to about 20. Yeah. Mhm. So, you know, they haven’t actually made the questions any more difficult. Again, I’m assuming they’re working from a bank of questions. They’re just It’s just additional More more questions and less time. Yes. So, it it’s just delivered differently. Um but like you say, CEM was brought in

Because they said they wanted to make it tutor-proof and unteachable. Uh and we’ll bring in non-verbal and 3D and all of that. Um but I think in my experience, certainly, I don’t know what you two think. Out of it out between English and Non-verbal for sure, I think that or even verbal, I think that non-verbal is probably the the more teachable of the three. Mhm. It’s It It is, but I’d say like the thing that they’re looking for The thing that they’re actually measuring is the speed with which a child can go through a process. Right. So, then if you think about when the 11 plus started, that’s they weren’t measuring speed initially. Mhm.

So the focus has changed. Yeah. I I I though the the the issue is is there’s different types of in the the the problem is with the 11 plus for me Has always been there’s different types of intelligence. Yes. So For sure. what I find is a a child can be very very intelligent Emotionally intelligent. like intelligent in in in different ways But um perhaps the CEM test and I think the CEM test is falls a foul of this the most. Mhm. Because it is basically a speed test. The there’s also slow intentional thinking.

And What explain? So so like most of your problems in life aren’t a speed test. No. They’re And and that’s what they’re selecting for is speed. Yeah, I think actually considered decision and taking time deciding and Reaching the right decision is a more important skill. Um How do you test for that? Yeah. Project based learning. Well, a project based test or something like that. Or City City of London brought that in. Mhm. Whether they still do it I don’t know. Okay, so you’ve mentioned GL and CEM. Okay, so there are two others that I know of. One is CSSE which is the consortium for secondary schools in Essex.

And is based The only one that’s not part of that consortium is Chelmsford Girls because they’ve opted to run their own tests and they use CEM. Yeah. Start papers. Um The all the others uh are part of the CSSE consortium. Okay, and what what’s different about that exam? You want to take this? Compared to Well, you’ve got I mean, first of all, the sec- sections aren’t split into No. different timings. Although, guidance is given on the page where it says, like, you might like to spend this long in this section and that kind of thing. But, that’s like any exam paper. So,

I think it’s a more familiar format. So, it’s more friendly to most children. Yes. I I’d say most most children, in my experience, dislike CEM over CSSE. Or Yeah, and is the And CSSE is easier for parents to get their head around, as Well. Yeah. CEM is very confusive. It’s easier for me to get my head around. Would you remember our our IT guy? When we first introduced him to the CEM paper and said, “Look, this is what the format of the paper is and this is what we’re looking for.” And he he’s a lawyer by profession. And he he he couldn’t get his head around it. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. He said you need a degree to understand all this. right. Yeah. And then CSSE also has

It’s got a a writing task. It’s got a writing task and it Well, two I think a lot is based on their core maths and English and that’s that’s what they typically do in school. You haven’t got as Yes. You have some non-verbal components in In the maths paper. But, but not not many though. Like, it might be It’s only nets, isn’t it? It might be something like nets that comes up, but I wouldn’t preclude other things necessarily. It depends on depends on the Yeah, it could change every year, couldn’t it? So, the difference really Is that a lot of that the maths No, in fact, I think both the maths and English are actually set by the schools themselves rather than get a board in to do it.

Um the other and and where is the CM and GL? That’s the other interesting thing actually. They’re multiple choice. And they’re not multiple choice because children find it easier or harder. They’re multiple choice because it means That uh Computers can mark the in the local council or wherever it they are can mark them. Yeah. So even if they get the question right and don’t mark the the sheet in the correct way Yes. Is wrong. Or if they mark two or something Or if they fill out cuz a lot of people fill out the question the answers on the question sheet and then attempt to transfer it all over at the end which we tell them obviously not to do. Um but based on the fact that there’s

More questions than there is time to answer them you could fill out everything correctly and not put it on the answer sheet and get zero. Well, in our mocks we’ve had children where they’ve missed a question so instead of marking question five against Answer five Oh yeah. they’ve done four or six and then so they’re out by one all the way through which means they get the whole thing wrong. common mistake that people do is they they they I don’t know why they do this but sometimes they they get confused between antonyms and synonyms and then They look for And you know that’s that’s it. But you know that’s another trick that CM uses. Mhm. So they’ll set synonyms and then the next section will be antonyms. So because the child has just done synonyms and when I’ve been

Proofing papers, our own papers I’ve done this. I’ve made that mistake myself. is in one mode and you’ve got to quickly switch it to another mode. to switch it very quickly. It’s this thing about speed again and and being present in that That’s why I’m terrible at that kind of thing cuz it takes me a while to get So Like this kind type of test is just not my style. I much prefer to do like Oh, I’m the other way around. a long form paper with We spoke about this yesterday. You said it takes you a while to switch between Yeah like task but for me for me it’s the other way around like I can switch between two different things in An instant. Yeah, I’m I’m slow. I need to get in the mood. Yes, I must admit I I’m a bit like that. you’re both Oh, we’re very very similar Joe and I. So what’s involved in preparing and and

Preparing

Like how how difficult is it? How long have you got? Um got about half an hour left. Um preparation so I the biggest mistake I think that a lot Of parents make is we’ve dropped our child off to tuition. They’re doing the 11 plus. That’s it. We’ve done our bit. We’re paying for it. And realistically any tuition center, any school Can only provide the initial learning and guidance. And materials. doesn’t happen at home the child generally not always. We’ve had we’ve had a couple of um

Children quite recently who didn’t do too much work at home but still managed to pass but you know, they were just naturally that way. Mhm. Um and we I must admit I personally one of them. Um I wasn’t too sure because he He you know, mom would come in and take the work cuz he just couldn’t be bothered to get up on a Saturday morning. Yeah. Do you know who I’m talking about? I know exactly who you’re talking about, yeah. No, but he like his ability is like Yeah, it was just he he just cuz he had That style of thinking and then he put the practice in at the end. you could teach him you could teach This is where intelligence comes into it cuz like intelligence is how quickly you can pick something up or typically like in terms of the IQ that they’re looking for. So

When you sometimes you teach a child, they need to be taught same thing several different ways and then they’re going to be taught how to apply it in loads of different scenarios. Whereas like I’d say someone with natural ability you can teach them something, they can Instantly apply it to loads of scenarios. Cuz they they they figure out Yes. the heart of They they get to Yeah, they they get to the heart of the problem quickly. That’s what it’s it’s looking for. Yes. Um and then other people you need to You Need to teach them in different ways that it turns up. Yes. So to answer your question in in what’s involved in in preparing it isn’t just about doing papers. Mhm. And I think this is the trap that a lot of parents fall into. Do another paper.

Do another paper. Do another paper. But you don’t What you want to see are incremental improvements. It does like I’d say with certain certain kids you can you can go through a paper and then teach them each score in it and then they’re very good at Absorbing it. But then the for the majority of children what they need to do is they need to practice a topic until they acquire mastery of the topic. Yeah, if you’re if these people are doing a paper on their own at home Oh, yeah. With no feedback. With no feedback, they’re essentially learning and reinforcing the wrong way to do something. Mistakes. Reinforcing your mistakes is So people say you learn from your mistakes. Yes. But, you don’t learn from your mistakes. You learn from understanding your mistakes.

Yes. And then Yeah, that’s what they mean. That’s what they mean. That’s what they mean. Exactly. That’s what they mean. They don’t mean just make mistakes and then No. It is, but but I feel I feel like a lot of the time when you’ve got like an inspiring quote about mistakes. Yes. It is about learning from mistakes. they just say, “Oh, you just make Mistakes and then you’ll learn from them.” But, that’s just not true. You’ve got to spend time to actually Like I always say to parents and stuff like if you if a if a child does a test, you spend twice about about twice as much time going through the mistakes of The test. Yes. Absolutely. especially those like mini tests. So, apart from tests, what what like obviously tests they they should be in the last 6 months or so leading up Even less than that, I would

Leading up to the exam. Even less than that. I think they they need to be they need to be tested on So, so if they if they do a a block of topics, then they need to be tested on those Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, yeah, so test testing on that sort of stuff is different to doing a full paper. I’m saying apart from doing a Full paper, what? So, with the 11 plus, the criteria we are told is that there will be no question beyond key stage two. Now, Well, Yes. I know. That’s not true. I know. Let me come to it. So, two things there. The exam takes place in the first term of year six. And they’re still learning topics in

Year six, but there are end of year topics included in the exam, which we’ve come across several times. Yes. We’ve also come across the the occasional question, more than Occasional question, where it’s well beyond Key Stage 2. Yeah. Is there a particular exam board where they appear more? I would say probably CEM. It It depends how you interpret it cuz like sometimes, you know, like a Sequence question, there’s sequences that they definitely do not do in school. Well, they they don’t do nth term till Year 7. Although although this new curriculum has brought it into Year 6. when Fibonacci sequences They don’t They don’t teach Fibonacci to But But they

They do appear. But they do appear. Yeah. So I It’s like what to to what extent do you I mean, I’d say that’s something that they’d need to learn because I didn’t know about Fibonacci sequences until I was much older. Yeah, but you you didn’t know like what it was called. Like they Children can can figure stuff out. Like if you’re talking about like what you said before, by taking one thing, like teaching a sequence or whatever, and being able to extrapolate that and put into different situations, some children can see that plus that equals the next one. They don’t need They don’t need necessarily Need to know it’s called a Fibonacci sequence. there there needs to be like I I’d say the majority of them are taught it when they’re preparation. Some people do get it though. Yeah. There There will be children who will get it automatically and and I

Think I think you’re right. I don’t think that they need to know what it’s called because they’re never going to be asked what it’s called. No, they need They need to know how it works though. But they just need to know how it works and I think that out. They’re expecting the children to figure it out. Now, that’s quite a simple example because it’s I’m not saying Fibonacci sequence is simple. I’m saying that particular example is simple Mhm. because it’s a short sequence. And if children have been working with numerical sequences, If they’ve done enough of it, they should be able to pick up what the sequence is. It depends how much they give you. If they only give you the first two three or four No, I’d I’d say the I’d say sequences is something like kids struggle a lot with. Yes, they do. Right.

Cuz if they don’t understand how it works, or they don’t understand especially geometric. Yes. So so when they when they apply multiplier to each, so so if you start with four and then it goes to two, especially halving. And then it goes to one, and it goes to and then you’ve got to figure out the next one. But you see a lot of that I personally think is is technique where they’re simply doing it in their head and that’s just too much information to hold in your head. Yeah. Particularly when you’re working at speed. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s technique and rather than existing knowledge. But but generally in school they’ve encountered arithmetic sequences. Yes, rather than geometric ones. Yeah, so so so they go up by a common

Difference or go down by a common difference. So those ones they tend to get correct. Cuz they’ve encountered it enough. Yes. But then if they haven’t seen enough sequences or types of sequences, which is generally true if they haven’t done tuition or something like that, then how Can you expect them to understand it? Yes. I mean there is always that aspect of it. Yeah. Um I think the key thing for preparing for this is under I mean this is how we work, so I’m going To say this. Is understanding the topic and learning how to apply that topic to a given problem. Mhm. Because that goes well beyond the 11 plus. That will see them through all the way through their education

System if they follow it through. What it will also do is give them the confidence that they can tackle almost anything. I think one of the best things is it teaches them to teach themselves. It teaches them to learn actually learn on their own. Yes, become independent learners. One of the best things is is what it does for their literacy in a lot of cases. For parents because they realize well, parents start to realize that their child their child’s literacy although it may be good in school. So, they they they might Be top of their their school in all of their year in terms of their literacy in school and and the books they’re reading that kind of thing. But because the 11 plus pushes them out of their comfort zone and they they’re sort of they have to read these antiquated texts.

Mhm. So, a lot of the time they’re they’re selecting like sometimes Dickens and stuff like that, which is very difficult. Um they’re they’re forced to be pushed out of their comfort zone in terms of reading and they encounter expressions And words and things like that and uses of language that they’re not used to. I think that that really pushes their ability. Yes. Um so, even with the brightest students they’re not necessarily used to That level of literacy. So, I think that’s that for me is the most one of the most valuable things. Yes. Is what it does for their comprehension. Yes. And a child’s reading like reading is the most important thing. Yeah, and and you know, expanding the

Vocabulary which then goes into verbal reasoning and into eventually their writing when they do their SATs and and then when they do their English GCSEs and Yeah. all the rest of it. Um I don’t know whether it’s because schools don’t have enough time Or whether Uh I think it’s it’s how things are taught. But you know, we’ve got we get children who are preparing for GCSE who forgotten how to use semicolons. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh and you’ve got to re-teach all of that but And and things like clauses and different types of clauses and different types of sentences and stuff like that. structure. Yeah. They Sometimes you end up teaching, you know, year six grammar. End up doing that again. because like there’s they’re dealing

With like structural components and stuff like that. And then they need to un- picking out parts of speech and stuff like that. And they’ve got to go back to their primary school knowledge in a way that they’ve forgotten. Yeah, and and it I think part of the 11 plus, I think Reinforces it a lot more than you know, within children who have have worked on the 11 plus than those who haven’t. Uh and I think it has long-term benefits. Mhm. I think I think the preparation process is It is grueling. Yes, and can we explain cuz that was that was the original question. What what’s involved in preparing? We haven’t covered that. What What we’ve covered general Well, we can talk about how we do it

Because not every tutor or teacher or parent would do where they’re working home will do it in the same way. But generally, the preparation is that you have to know all of the topics In key stage two in maths and English right up to the end of year six. That’s the first thing. You need to be able to apply those topics. So, uh area of a compound shape, for example. Understanding of the topic is not enough. No, no. Not knowledge is not enough. for sure it’s not enough. For instance, like, you know area of a triangle. Yes. Yeah. But those a question that basically caught everyone out recently and we had an assessment recently and

They they had they had the area of the triangle and they had the height of the triangle and they had to find the width of the triangle. So so the the height was included and then the area is there. But if you don’t understand or if you can’t You remember you in order to find that you’d have to So in order to find the area of a triangle you’ve got to multiply the width by the perpendicular height and then halve it. Yes. And it’s the halving they forget. they forget to multi- yeah. They’ve got to work backwards. Yes. So they have to multiply rather than halve. I must admit I looked at that question because it was quite recent, wasn’t it? I looked at that question and I think I even put a note in to our system to say this is too difficult for them. Yeah. But they they do ask that type of

Yes, they do. They ask that type of question that tests their their deep understanding of of the topic. So So so knowledge is not enough we’re saying right? Knowledge is definitely not enough and particularly if you’re sitting CEM and you’ve got to work at speed. You’ve got To have come across enough of these problems to be able to recall your memory to say oh yeah, I’ve seen this before and I know what to do. Right. So this is a this is a one one thing where people go wrong quite a lot. They they jump straight into papers and try and get the exam technique and the The exposure to the stuff done too early. We’re saying get the knowledge done first, get your foundational knowledge sorted. Experience these questions in different situations and then start repeating papers once you’re aware of

The parents really panic about this and we had it last year. Mhm. Where we had few parents who had just panicked about oh, they haven’t had enough exam practice they’ve not had enough exam practice. But you know we were in the middle But you’re just The thing is if you test Too early you’re just not confident enough. Like you’re freaking the children out. They’ll be like oh no I don’t know anything. on their timing rather than the actual content. Yeah so you’ve got to get the content down first. And so the preparation is not just You’ve got to know the topic. So the first step is you’ve got to know the topic. The second step is you’ve uh uh I think I’ve I’ll have a look but I think I’ve put a list of topics. Uh obviously it’s not exhaustive it’s not an exhaustive list

But I think it covers sort of 90-95% of the topics. I think I’ve put it on our website Yeah. as a free resource. We’ll leave We’ll leave a link. Yeah. And we’ve also got um downloadable mock exams and things like that you can do. Just make sure you get The knowledge first before you start Yeah. doing all the papers. Yeah. So the first thing is having the knowledge. The second thing is being able to apply that knowledge. The third thing is then looking at timing. And exam technique. And exam technique. So uh And then finally it is it’s And this is I would say such an important step just before the exam actually going through and looking where your weak weak areas are. Mhm. And focusing on those weak areas and and

Trying to shore them up. It’s like building a a battlement I guess a you know you you want to make sure that all the walls are secure. That’s That’s where That’s where tests come into it. And that’s probably testing’s main main point or it should be testing’s main point. It’s not just The score isn’t the most important thing. The important thing is why did they get Until the exam Why did Why did they get a question wrong? Yeah. Is it born out of Is it a silly mistake? Mhm. Is it an avoidable mistake or is it like a fundamental issue in terms of the Concept? the concept. Yes. Yeah. Same with anything. If you’re If you’re making something, if you’re designing something, you would you’d test once you’ve made it. Yeah. You wouldn’t be able to test before it’s all there. Yes. Well, yeah. You’ve got to build the

Foundation first and then In terms of verbal and nonverbal preparation, schools don’t teach it. No. Most schools don’t teach it, no. I don’t know any schools that teach it. No, some people Some Some do now. Do they? Some of those prep schools. Yeah, the prep schools. Oh, the prep schools do? I was thinking more state schools. they they Some Some Some state schools where I feel like the teacher usually has or the the headmaster of the school or the headmistress of the school has an Insight into the exam or or wants more people to go from the state school. Has has some kind of agenda there. Then they may push some like extra sessions to trying to help filter their student into a particular Yeah. school from that school to them.

But most heads in most schools are against the 11-plus, so we don’t see this. Um So So the the way to do it is uh either go to a tutor or buy There are plenty of books available and Um ours There I I think there are some others. I can’t I’m not 100% sure. There must be. There must be. I think Yeah, I think there is a Bond one, but our ones teach them the techniques. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, that’s how how how to answer a question. So, yes, so our books we made to help parents teach their children. Yeah. So, have you ever seen a question Is it difficult Is the Is the 11-plus difficult from in your opinion?

Difficulty

For someone that is year five, year six, you know, age age 10. I think it’s very difficult, yeah. Um obviously, like you get variation. Yeah. But but like I don’t know one child who would say it was easy in terms of Preparing for it. No. No. Even even the ones who are like top top level. Yeah. So, it’s not for it’s not for everyone, and it shouldn’t be for everyone. No, it shouldn’t be for everyone. You know, you know your own child, and you know whether one they can handle the pressure. Uh because remember that it’s it’s not just the pressure of the 11 plus. Once they get into a grammar school, the pressure is ongoing. And the majority of children who get into grammar school then carry on tuition. I think the the thing the thing is if if

You just make it in to one of these schools, when you get into these schools, you’re at the bottom. Yeah. Everyone else is. But if you are we found the people that just miss out and go to a different school, Are at the top. school. And they’re at the top. I I I think there’s do generally do quite well. They they actually, there was a thing there was a study, and and actually, they they followed kids who had just missed out and those who just got in. And the ones who Didn’t who who missed out actually did better, I used to see. Yes. Yeah. And I think confidence is a ma- is a massive factor Yeah. in how child performs in an exam. Also, it’s the study skills that have been instilled,

Mhm. you know, during the 11 plus. It’s something when you’re preparing for the 11 plus, it’s not oh, it’s Saturday, so we need to go to tuition, and then that’s it. Mhm. You need to be doing something every single day, even if you’re playing a game about adjectives or capital cities Or countries or So, yeah, what we what we tend to say is that they’re here for 3 hours a week, roughly. Mhm. Which is less than 150 hours a year. The other however many hundreds and thousands of hours, They’re not here. They’re They’re at school or they’re at home. Mhm. So, it does practicing that needs to take place not just when you’re in here. It needs to take place throughout the week.

Consistency

Yes. So consistency Is Well, Well, yeah. What’s Yeah. How important would you say consistency is for Very. 11 plus? Very. Oh, very important with any preparation towards a goal. Like consistency. For that. Because when you’re Think about when you learn your times tables, and I’ve given this example like a million times. When you’re learning your times tables, you’re learning them by rote mostly. So, I was teaching year two year one yesterday, and we were doing times two Two times tables. And one child just did not get it. Mhm. Didn’t get it. And then eventually, I showed him two or three different ways of doing it. And then eventually, the penny dropped, and he said, “Oh, it’s doubling.”

And then he was fine. Okay. Um Now, when you’re learning times tables, obviously that technique you’re taught. But after that, to remember your times tables is done by rote. And It goes into your short-term memory, but because you practice it so much, it then ends up in your long-term memory. And that’s the That’s why consistency is important. Because if you’ve been like that example that You were talking about with the area with the triangle, that question. If you do that question once, if you don’t have a good memory, cuz remember, children are learning so many different things. Yeah. They’re being exposed to so many different things for this exam. You do that question just once.

Generally, it won’t be enough. No. So, if you came across that in your exam, you know, you may you may remember you should or the child should remember what the that they’ve they’ve come across it Before, but they may not necessarily remember how to answer that question. And so, absolutely important is um consistency of practice. Mhm. And and preparing for the 11 plus doesn’t have to always have to be pen and paper. So, you know, taking going uh shopping with a child, for example, and testing their their mental

Arithmetic skills, Yeah. which is so foundational. Yeah, adding decimals, you dealing with money, you finding the change. There’s a lot of skills, though. so So, you know, if you’re going on holiday, doing conversions, when if you’re traveling, looking at Timetables, and asking questions on them and saying, “Well, what You know, what If this train was 10 minutes later, do you think we’re going to get there 10?” And and actually getting the children to think about things. You know, you know, bus You know, we Were doing timetables recently, and everyone not even like bar none got confused by bus timetables, because they they don’t take the bus. Well, no, but even when they do take the bus, They don’t look at them, yeah. Well, they’ve got these new

Boards, haven’t they? These electronic things. Your bus will be here in 2 minutes. They don’t really have to think about it. But But yeah, like they they give You know how you’ve got a a range of time, yeah? The the layout is yeah, 7 minutes past 6. Um and then every hour. And they’ve got to figure out Yeah. when like the 1:00. 7 minutes past 1 bus is going to they’ve never seen that before. But it says on the hour every hour or whatever it is. Yeah. It’s It’s really Every 30 minutes or whatever. Yeah, they they got confused. And then there’s a section that had Monday to Friday and then Saturday different times. Sunday no bus. And like trying to figure out what to do with that. 10 years ago children would have been stronger at that than they are now.

There’s definitely a shift in children’s thinking. Now, whether that’s to do with the lockdowns etc. I don’t know. No, it’s technology. We have said that That was the other thing is technology. Better technology It’s like map reading. Better technology makes stupider people. Yes. And It’s the same for me like I I could read maps and I could do do like Yeah, if I force myself to read a map I can but I could drive without having to I remember look anything up and now I actually look at Google or whatever it is for most of my Journeys. I remember like cuz we were reading maps when we were 11 on geography trips and that kind of thing and like it made sense then but then it probably makes even less sense now because I haven’t done it for so long. But And now imagine a child who’s never seen

It. Yeah. And putting them in that situation and them having to So so A big part of the preparation I think is actually give This is the hardest thing I think actually for a parent is giving your child rich experiences. Yes. And Getting involved. Getting them in into things that You well, for instance, going to the museum, going on holiday. even beyond that, like Okay, I took my child to the Natural History Museum. Um what did you see? Just a bear. Yeah. There’s no It’s that interaction. Yeah. You need to provoke thought. Yes. It’s that interaction and getting the child to actually look at things

Differently and think about things that goes a long way. And it’s all preparation. It doesn’t have to be pen and paper all the time. Obviously, pen and paper is important. Yeah. Cuz that’s what the exam will be. But there are some So, you know, I don’t Know if you’ve done Wordle. Yes, we do it all the time. All right. And what I like about that game and things like that is it’s a fun thing that gets them excited about words. Yes. And in a way that they wouldn’t So, so Actually like things like board games and stuff like that Articulate, Junior Articulate, and those kind of Those things are really good to do at home as a family. Boggle, we used to do Boggle as well. Mhm. We used to We spent hours on Boggle. Yeah, it’s got a competitive side to it.

It’s got a time limit. It’s Yeah, it’s got learning. And it’s also something you can do with the family. Um so, it’s bonding. So, those types of experiences could if you’re thinking about or you’re trying to work out what your child is Missing in terms of the 11-plus it could be that. Yes. Because you you couldn’t You can spend all your time learning topics, but you don’t bring them to life that way. You It’s only when you you do you apply it to something interesting, like actually going to a museum, learning History, or going to I don’t know. Playing a a word game and discovering new words. Um where you’d actually you know, bring the knowledge to life. Yeah, it’s exposing them to their source

Of in a fun way. Yeah. To actually make them actively interested in it rather than just here’s a paper and Cuz children children generally need an Well, people need incentives Yes. For sure. So But even at a even at a a more basic Level, we we talked about this before where Well, again, racking my memory. Something to do chicken, wasn’t it? That they thought uh chickens came from lambs or Something. What was it? Do you Do you remember this? No. No. Yeah, we had we had Wasn’t a dream, was it? No no no. I’ve heard people say it was an apple comes from Tesco’s. Not from a tree. Because Well, I mean, I guess they’re

I guess they’re right. They are right. No, we had this with the they thought chicken was made from I can’t remember now, but it it it ridiculous whatever it was. Yeah. It It was It was and it it I think it took the tutor back somewhat to Think, “Hang on a minute. What’s going on here?” No, every single week something takes me back. Like when they didn’t know what cello was. Yes. a cello? Yes. All right. What? You haven’t So So it’s like They Never mind cello, a lot of them don’t know what violin is. True. Yeah, I had that the other day. So So it’s it’s that exposure is particularly for verbal reasoning very important. Yeah. And it’s it’s hard to say to a parent

Exactly oh how to improve vocabulary cuz vocabulary is what you use on an everyday basis and what you’re exposed to. it then If If they don’t If they don’t have a rich enough Level of experience in a particular area, then they’re not going to It’s not going to feel visceral to them. They’re not going to Yeah. It’s not going to feel real to them. I mean, another way of doing that is to introduce a set number of new words Every week. Mhm. You know, several ways of doing it. For example, just randomly opening a dictionary. I I think that has its place, especially for more weird vocabulary items. But, then

Something like a cello is best ex- Like, the best way to learn what a cello is is to actually see a cello and play around with the cello or hear it. So, in those cases, you you kind of go well, there’s there’s a limit to what There’s a limit what you can learn from like flash cards or dictionaries and that kind of thing. You’ve got to experience it. there’s a you know, there’s a limit to how many instruments, for example, cuz that’s what we’re talking about, a a child can play about with and touch, etc. Yes, Sure. You could go into a music shop, you know, one that sells all these instruments etc. Um but just as easily would be to watch an orchestra play even on telly and talk about the different instruments. Every Every

Phone, Mac, iPad, or whatever has has Garage Band on it, which is what we’re using to record now, and you can you can literally just choose an instrument and start playing it on the screen. You can hear it. You can hear it. You That’s in everybody’s hands. But, the difficulty with that is obviously these devices are Content competes for time. Yes. And a child could spend Like, I think a child could spend part of their day looking at diverse content, but the the fact is is that they won’t. They they spend their time, You know, looking at maybe something a bit obscure obscure and Yes. Yes. Well, not not just obscure just like maybe not that beneficial. But but then that is in in the parents control, isn’t it? So so it’s up to the

Parent to guide. Yeah within I I understand like some parents have have demands on their time. All parents have demands on their time. There are none that don’t. So But that’s just part of it, you know? It’s part of bringing up your child and giving them what they need. Particularly if you want them to go down that grammar school route or or the independent school route that then you just have to put in the work. It’s that simple. Yeah. I think there’s no easy way about it. easy way. You know, all all a tutor can do is help as much as they can within the time frame and then guide the the parent to

Say, “Well, we’ve noticed X, Y, and Z and this is what we think you should do.” Mhm. Beyond that 10% Yeah. Beyond that it’s it’s up to the parent. I mean, something like You know how um remember in the nursery Podcast we were talking about how um there’s Montessori and using the child’s interest to to push their learning in in different ways. Yeah, you could go down that road. There there there there’s also like um some some problems can be solved By by going down that route. So, if you want your child to learn let’s say say that your child loves football. Quite common thing with boys. They they love football. Um and they’re just mad about football. Then maybe like they can

You can enrich their experience somewhat and they can learn some words by reading the history of the World Cup. Mhm. Um and or something like that, like because that will it will probably expose them to a lot of of words that they’re not used to. The two siblings in Lawton Which one? mad about football Yeah. Your one and your three. Okay. Yeah, we’ll leave it there for today. Yeah. That was quite interesting.