0:04 Introducing Rupa and Vicky
1:24 The nursery’s beginnings
5:48 Why families use nurseries
9:40 Early-years learning
11:35 Lockdown and young children
17:12 Staffing ratios in the 2022 discussion
22:53 Montessori and approaches to learning
26:38 Safety and risk assessment

Introducing Rupa and Vicky

The Education Lounge podcast welcome to The Education Lounge podcast this is episode nine and today we’re joined by rupa who Is el presidente because she she basically the big b yeah she’s the big b he manages uh Redbridge Tuition which is us and also the Hunnypot day nursery which is managed by vicky crossley who also joins Us on this chat which is in huddersfield yeah okay so hi all vicky so I just want to start by asking um what’s your experience in child care in education

Um first of all well to me okay so uh 2004 I did early years pgce which uh if you’ve watched previous podcasts etc you’ll you’ll know I was unable to finish for personal Circumstances um was tutoring all the way through it uh again that was it was just like a hobby was just doing it as a favor to a friend and it just built from there prior to that

The nursery’s beginnings

In 20 years ago 2001 uh we bought a childcare business and the reason because this is the first question I’m always asked you’re in london that’s 200 miles away Why why so far away and the reason was because my husband refused to buy anything that was on lease and it was a business that he was running at the time and it was a 29th place nursery That was running I have to say very badly because the lady who we bought it from was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and had a nervous breakdown and then that eventually got built up

We had a lot of issues in 2004 when the the then every child was it every child matters then I can’t remember what it was called it’s called every child matters basically it got um What’s that I can’t think of the word not legalized but um you know they the government put in they brought in some regulations it got regulated that’s the word it got regulated We had major issues because the then manager um didn’t do what she was asked to do and at this end there was a lot of ill health so things fell apart a little bit

So we rebranded we started again we re-registered with ofsted and I think vikki came along not far after that was it wasn’t too far it was about 2003 2004 when I came yes and I came on a college placement to start off with yes yeah it was it was september 2004 so yeah I did my college placement and Then did that for a year and then I did another placement here and then I got offered a full-time job so then going from there I was a nursery nurse and then I went to

A nursery room senior and then worked up and then went to deputy manager and now manager yes done really well so so then in uh so that was in 2004 And vicky has been with us all that time and then in 2012 the the the manager then millie who sort of started just before vicky did who’s now retired rang me up on a snowy february to say The building next door has come up for sale so at this point it was at this time it was a 29 place nursery I went to view the building the the next week we set up plans on what we could do

Uh I put together a business proposition took it to a couple of banks we got keys in july I think it was and then it went mad Till and we were in there by september we had august we had effectively six weeks to turn this building into a nursery while and obviously I’m over here but I did go up there for that time um While the other nursery was still running yeah and then one weekend everything got transferred over how many places does the new building hold this one holds 62. so we’ve doubled in size more than doubled in size

Um and it it’s it’s been a hell of a journey really okay um let’s let’s move on to the next question um so I’m just wondering what what do you think is the purpose of

Why families use nurseries

Nurseries so as you see it why would a parent send their child to a nursery I I have a big picture answer to this I don’t know whether you vicky want to wade in on this first I think from like getting to see the experiences that children are having it’s about them being able to interact and you know have social time with children because some children don’t get to see anybody else and so it’s more like Getting getting them opportunities to get messy socialize and learn and just play yeah a lot of lot of what we see is for I mean this is just one example and

This is by no means every single child but the nursery is in a deprived area um we have a lot of children who would generally develop less social skills So for example teaching children how to use knife and fork and cutlery it’s a very sort of simple example yeah but you know so so the staff will often have to role model what to do and the big picture answer to what what the Purpose of nurseries in my opinion is as society has changed as both pare because in sort of if you think about in the 50s it was the the man who went out to work and the woman did the child care um and and you know

You knew your neighbors and it was a community and then as women have had to go out to work to make ends meet um and obviously with second world war all of that um and the breakdown of sort of the Extended family what happens to the children yeah so they need the truth so they need the child care and governments and in fact this is now child care has has become it is developed here and in the states and In in the sort of western world but you know you you know that um probably about five years ago no more than that because we’ve had lockdown probably about seven years ago uh I was getting emails to say you know there are opportunities to set up

Childcare businesses in places like india and china so it’s beginning the same process is taking place over there so so the idea of child care is to have a systemized Process where children get to do all the things they would have done um before both parents had to go out to work so these like these nurseries did I have like is there Any regulation in terms of curriculum yes so curriculum came in in 2004 wasn’t it vicky first one was every child matters your sound is gone every child matters

And then it was something else I can’t remember it was the seven steps of le the seven areas of learning were brought in after that but I can’t remember what it was and then they brought in the uifs which is the early years foundation stage so Just like in school you have key stage one key stage two etc the early years foundation stage is the bit that key stage one is built sorry key stage one is built on the

Early-years learning

Early years foundation state so there are seven areas of learning on there yeah um I can’t remember them off the top of my head but basically you’re looking at children being able to read and write to Be able to count and have social skills uh and become independent but then there’s a lot of like when you teach a child in year one there’s a lot of them that struggle with oh yeah they don’t reach the minimum no no they’re in fact we’ve got Because of lockdown um we’ve got children who come to tuition who are in year two who can’t read now in places like sweden uh and the nordic countries that’s quite common

You know that a child is not really taught to read till they’re about seven it’s just play till then although I think it may be changing um but we do get a lot of children we’re seeing more and more children in Tuition who are who who are at least a year behind based on the eyfs and the key stage one I don’t know what you’re finding vicky with eyfs like at the moment you can tell that Lockdown’s had a big impact on all of the ages so usually we’d see that babies the more easy going and you know they’re happy to join like new areas and things like that when they’re coming in you can see that

How emotional they are as well and a lot of children are not used to being around anybody at the moment so yeah they’re very weary a little unsettled very unsettling I’ve noticed that a lot

Lockdown and young children

Yeah when I’ve come up there you can see in the parents as well they’re anxious yes because they’re not used to having the children around anybody so it has had a big impact on everyone yeah Well I’ve noticed well my friend had a baby like a year ago like jimin knocked down and he said it was similar so he’s trying to get well she goes his little daughter goes to the Uh private day nursery um just like three times a week in order to get that socialization because I would pee around people she’s not very very good yeah and it’s because of uh locked down because she couldn’t see anyone else apart from

Apart from my friend and his wife yeah it’s a very common story very common story um let’s just move on I think our cost question is important so In terms of if you want to send your your child if you want to send your child to uh to a nursery what are some typical costs that you could expect to have to outlay um you’ve got private and Probably I I don’t know how the system works exactly but maybe you can enlighten me so depending on the your circumstances and what kind of sessions you’re looking for then

These different um like a different costume the full-time places part-time places um we work on a pro writer calculation um so everyone knows where they’re standing It’s all calculated for the parents and then we’re you know they they know that that payment will come out on say the first of every month there is a lot of support now for parents so these two-year-old funding and three and four-year-old funding So sorry no go on go and finish um a lot of parents now can get extra support from the government as well um they tried to balance it out

By offering more working parents you know like a top up so that’s like in 30 hours that’s advertised and and then you can get like different types of tax-free childcare so this this support for everybody Um and we like from what we offer you can see the impact that it has on them parents as well so so typically most private nurseries which is what we are take children from six weeks Um onwards um at the at really when when they until they turn two um it is the peripheral individual circumstance that determines

How much help they get so you know if you if they if they’re a student which we seem to see a lot of then yeah a lot of their costs are paid childcare costs are paid so that they can go and attend college you’ve got tax credits You’ve got all the other standard government incentives that are out there and then when the child turns two the government offers every child who from two to three years old 15 hours A week of free child care that the government pays for that’s based on like the parents fitting into certain criteria

Yes so so it’s it’s means tested um then when they go to three years old there’s three-year-old funding and four-year-old funding Which typically is 30 hours now there was talk about introducing 30-hour free child care for the two to three year olds that hasn’t happened yet but what the government has Done is brought in this thing which not every nursery does but I think but we do is called stretch where you can spread your 15 or 30 hours

Across so before so the government pays term time only it’s based on the school system but they’ve brought in this this stretch system where it allows parents to bring children in during holidays if they So wish obviously depends on what the nurse what what the nursery can manage um because we above all There are two major things apart from the socializing and the teaching there’s two major things really that we are constantly aware of and one is that we meet the ofsted

Staffing ratios in the 2022 discussion

Ratios so there are guidances set by ofsted and you have to be ofsted registered to get the funding so if you’re not often registered you can still run as a nursery but you can’t get the free funding um but to get the Say free funding um you lost my train of thought yes so you have to be ofsted registered to get the free funding Ah I’ve lost my train of thought you were talking about stretch funding weren’t we yeah so it is

If the parents wish just to stretch the funding they can do um sometimes it’s really tricky to calculate um but what you do is it gives the parents that opportunity to Like rule says bring them in the holidays and keep consistent routine for the children um which if children are obviously the whole of summer when they come back at the start of the new term Some children don’t come as well as others at coming back after like I’ve been a full six weeks so some parents use that opportunity to keep them in so they yeah they can keep in a nice routine yeah I would have thought would

Be pretty important because a lot of parents can’t have a that much time off work like considering unless you’re a teacher and you go by turn times then yeah so most people don’t work in that way no so what happens then Is the parent will take the 15 hour or the 30 hour free funding stretch it when wherever they’re able to uh and then pay a top up so they pay additional fees um to put their child in for extra hours Um the two things I’ve remembered the two things that were really are the the two big things that we as a nursery have to absolutely adhere to one is safeguarding um

And the second is that we meet offstead ratios that we you so often set out guidelines as to how many um staff per or how many chuck children per pound of saffron members And you know there is a dichotomy there where it’s a different rule for schools and a different wool for nurseries um was that a whole is so they’ve changed the rules vicky um do you want to take this they’ve changed The rules let me just put my two cents worth in um so that it’s it used to be really strict and now they’ve said it’s guidelines as long as you stay within the guidelines

So you’ve got so your baby room age you you’ve got a ratio of one to three so one adult to three children and then it goes into your next age bracket which is what we’d call you toddler age children So you’ve got a ratio of one to four again one adult four children and then your preschool children and you’ve got a ratio of one to eight so one adult to eight children That must be very difficult to maintain like with the if you were one member of staff for three three babies yeah it is it is not easy it’s it’s probably one of our biggest challenges

To to maintain and make sure that we stay within ratios because for any child care business at least 75 of the money that comes in goes to um wages Yeah uh and and most and for the amount that these staff these members of staff have to do and then the majority of them are on minimum wage on in almost every nursery yeah you know it’s a big ask it’s Difficult and yeah and dealing with children is working with children is not easy um I want to touch on sort of the types of nurseries that kind of thing because that’s

I don’t really know that much of the difference between saying montessori and something else so you’ve got different types of um they work in different ways um I don’t know if you could help me understand that Vicky you want to do this or do you want me to do it you can do this one other 20 words um so typically there are three types of nurseries That are the most common um you’ve got your your standard nursery that follows eyfs you’ve got montessori nurseries and montessori nurseries were set up by

Montessori and approaches to learning

A lady called maria montessori and the the key difference between those two initially although it sort of blurred a lot now was that with the montessori Everything was planned so just like in schools where teachers have to plan out the lessons we have to do the same at the nursery but we have to do it uh oh sorry so so with with the montessori the planning would be around The child so if a little boy for example is big into superman or spider-man or whatever it is you know some sort of superhero and another little boy is big into barbie dolls

Um you’ve got a design activity yeah or there’s somebody who just wants to color all the time then all of the activities in that montessori would be around the scaffolding that takes place around the learning Is based on that child’s interest now eyfs initially was you set up um there are steps that they go up so in like in the old curriculum Pre-2014 you had a level by the end by the time you were in year six you had to have reached achieved uh a level five and if you achieved a level six you were considered in the top

Quarter percentile various the the original or the yes so the original ufs was set up along those lines where there were steps that they you know there are next and still there are next steps So is a baby uh able to turn for example do they recognize you when when you go up and do they smile certain things so there are steps within development um and what eyfs has done is brought in a Lot of what the montessori system did I’ve got that right haven’t I vicki that you you try and plan around the child’s interest and the next steps and the next steps

Obviously yeah and then you’ve got an emerging type of nursery which is called they’re called forest schools and in a nutshell what they are Is that almost all of the learning takes place outdoors in a foresty sort of a woodland sort of environment something sounds really fun yeah what about babies they can’t do that no they can’t They can’t but no no forest forest schools are are more for the toddlers and upwards really but that’s the sort of emerging um what do you think of that model

For us we looked at this do you remember we looked at how we could incorporate some of the forest school ideas for us where we are we’re in a deprived area with no forest around us Not a week and we took the children out one day a week logistically just not possible yeah there’s like a cost as well like getting them exactly getting them to the forest

Safety and risk assessment

Yeah getting them back yeah and then safety well we I mean we take children out um and you have to do all your risk assessments so you know when when a room leader comes in to vicky and says are we taking them To the park or the museum then vicky needs to see the risk assessments before she’ll approve it so there’s always risk assessments yeah but yeah it’s it’s um so we we try and incorporate we I must Admit we haven’t succeeded yet but we’re trying to incorporate as much of that forest ethos into because we’re really lucky we’ve got big um garden so what we’re trying to do is uh develop the nursery so that we can

Incorporate some of that forest idea yeah into the garden that we haven’t got there yet okay um I just want to ask the question to both of you um what’s the most so from your perspective so what’s the most challenge Challenging aspects of in in your case overseeing everything the distance is definitely a challenge I’d love to be able to just pop in although probably vicky’s thinking good job she’s far away because she there’s Chaos every time she comes yeah it follows me so um so the distance um I’m I’ve had the nursery now 20

Years when we first got it obviously I was 20 years younger and to do a day trip was I wouldn’t even think twice about it drive up do what I needed to do be there for 10 o’clock eleven o’clock sometimes You know drive back at five o’clock uh and and being to work the next day into tuition the next day can’t do it anymore yeah so that’s my fault huddersfield that’s about as far as but I used to be able to do it it was never an issue I Can’t I am I must admit at the minute I am struggling but I think a lot of this is locked down fever where we’ve just got out of the habit I’ve just got out of the habit so that’s definitely a big challenge

After lockdown bringing the business back up has been a massive challenge financially um the transition was fine because vicky knows her stuff inside out and Um you know I’ve got no issues in just letting her run with it yeah um and then really it’s just the planning of the business going forward Because for the last 10 years or so probably not 10 actually probably about seven years or so I’ve constantly been looking to say okay I want to get another nursery up there it’s just we’ve looked at so many and it just hasn’t happened so now I’m at a

Point of okay well let’s just develop this one a bit more okay so that’s my biggest challenge I don’t know what well yours will be a bit more day-to-day I imagine day-to-day challenges yeah so like no day is ever the same In in the nursery um this well there’s always something going on um you’ve got like you’ve got obviously kobe has had a big impact on everyone um We want inked obviously like rook says develop the nursery and then we want to pick the business up and get spaces filled um which now we’re seeing more people are getting out and about so we’re getting a lot more inquiries but

A lot of people are wanting you know like set kind of requests they only want to do certain hours um and then you try your best obviously to cater for what everybody wants And but then you you start on a a smooth roll and then something else happens changes by the hour yeah you’ve even got like obviously with the whole coping situation you’ve either got People that are needing to act well was needing to isolate and so if anyone was a close contact obviously you want to isolate everybody and we’re at that time of year now where everyone’s getting the winter cold and

All the you know they’re not feeling well because everybody’s mixing again and so obviously they’re gonna get they’re gonna start feeling unwell yeah because we’re going into flu season yeah so you’ve Constantly got to keep your staffing going and then you’ve got to manage your stuffing to manage your ratios um then you’ve got the day-to-day running of the nursery so you’ve got like everything that happens throughout the Day you’ve got your office side you’ve got the nursery nurse side you’ve got the building side oh we’ve had a leak here or asda hasn’t turned up or yeah car parks blood it’s all sorts of stuff

Okay you can’t really write it because like I said no day is the same yeah staffing is probably one of the biggest headaches in terms of um like you said if somebody comes you know Is not well or needs to isolate or I think that’s a challenge for everyone well it’s challenging for most businesses but especially education well particularly because we’ve got to stay within ratio so if a member of staff in the baby room Has to isolate yeah we have to see well they’ve been in contact with everybody else or so we have to then see well who have they been in contact with which parents do we need to speak to which members of staff need to isolate

But in the meantime we still have to keep the room going so then how do we do that it’s a massive challenge okay uh I’d like to draw to close I suppose um thank you vicky for joining us and very important and we’ll hopefully see you next time For another podcast thank you thank you bye bye [Music] You