0:00 Parents’ experiences of the 7 plus
4:33 Parental pressure and expectations
8:53 Building writing skills
13:17 Play and challenge
24:31 Interviews
31:08 School choice and travel
42:31 Keeping childhood in perspective

Parents’ experiences of the 7 plus

[Music] The Education Lounge podcast welcome to The Education Lounge podcast my name is rupa I’m one of the tutors at Redbridge Tuition um today I am talking with helena and anna they’re both parents who we’ve worked with for their children for seven plus firstly I want to say congratulations to both of you because they got the school They wanted and so the conversation is really just about their experience um what we could have done better and just life in general really during the 11 plus 11 plus seven plus life in general

Uh during the seven plus so welcome helena welcome anna thank you um so let’s start by talking about how you found us um I know that it was Uh you you were walking past I think weren’t you yeah and it was by a chance and we just popped in the shop and asked about classes and price and how it all works and then just decided to try it out and you know Successfully what was your first impression when you walked in well what impressed us it was nice and quiet and even the group lessons where you had kids working in

You can see they were concentrating they were working it was quiet and obviously that would caught our eye that you know everyone was interested everyone was working and you you know yeah because we we’ve seen we’ve seen Other tutors working in the group where it was too noisy you know kids were walking around eating you know not listening and obviously you don’t want to put kids in that condition so yeah it was yeah you could see the word progress it Was nice and also it’s actual that actual tutor is teaching them not you know like students just two years old of your child just sitting and supervising them yes so some tutor tuition center where

Would give them a printed work and then a little girl would sit or a little bird sit and supervise them but this action was a teacher who would explain them how to do it and um Sitting and eating crisps and you know walking around that’s the main thing yes yeah and there’s smaller groups as well so you could see each child around the table what they’re working what their work is how they’re concentrating so um basically the teacher was in Control in that this good thing yeah um so when uh arya and nicholas first started they started with us in year one uh I know anna for you it wasn’t initially about seven plus yeah it was just to keep nicholas on a

Good level at school make sure he’s not falling behind anywhere and if he had some somewhere in there gaps that will be filled in and yeah so what made you then decide to go for seven plus And [Music] if by the time the exams come he will be on a good level we will try that’s painless and he was on the right level and we tried it succeeded which is Right thank you um but yeah a lot of lots of kids do it by pressure at school um because you know that some parents start talking about it some parents started doing it and their fear of missing out is quite

Strong yes it is actually because this is one of the ways that a lot of tutors that I’ve heard about um so I’ve been doing this since 2007. so you get to hear stories and you constantly hear about tutors

Parental pressure and expectations

Talking about um putting that sort of pressure on them you’re going to miss out your child’s going to miss out yeah um I think it’s not the pressure from the tutor it’s pressure from the parents like there’s your exam is coming in Yes everybody will speak you have to sit down but we never emphasize on that you you will go there you will try this will work out fine not it doesn’t matter the world does not end on that show exactly and the presumption is that seven plus has Uh aids easier and has less competition which is totally not true so it’s actually more competition and it’s more pressure on your keys because they’re small so yes because they’re so small it’s actually really challenging but one of the reasons

So we’re so we’re based in redbridge and the seven plus exam is for the independent schools not brown schools for those that are not fully aware of that but the the three Big schools in our area are forest bank often chigwell there are some smaller independent schools also but forests have uh uh recently moved to six plus Which means that they will now only have bancroft and tubewell for seven plus and therefore the pressure is much greater actually it’s it’s I think what’s called it it’s really unfair maybe they did it to improve their statistics

And uh times yeah which is but it’s it’s unfair so there will be more competition there will be uh the younger six of us how do you because it’s a lot of skill depends on the maturity level of kids Yes I think your kid is not mature yes there’s a lot of summer babies there there’s a year difference between the summer babies and society right so it’s you know but in a year time they might develop much nicer yes yes yeah because each child Obviously develops at a different rate and they are so young so nicholas was what five no arya was five and nicholas was six okay yeah so ali was five yeah and I was supposed to have this panel because

Uh two to do six plus you cannot be judging your math because you are not doing much yet you cannot be judged on um anything else except how talkative you are Yes yeah so I I think that’s wrong it’s not my thing to judge but I think as a parent I would not agree with that yes Yeah but obviously they will take kids that are very mature at that age uh very independent because of what school looks for are looking for um independent and mature kids for six plus but it doesn’t necessarily

Mean that they are more intelligent than others because by the age of seven plus or eleventh plus uh the difference will be deep you know it is a massive difference that that those those few years you know the development Is is um substantial and so it makes it especially the boys yes it was it was it really was quite challenging with nick as I was saying to you earlier you know where I I used to think when Nicholas first started it would be I I’d work with him for an hour and it would be really difficult to get him to sit down for that hour because obviously he’s that sort of a child he’s you know he’s a kinesthetic learner so we’d have to work in a

We couldn’t work with just pen and paper for that whole hour see it for more than 20 minutes but I’d get a sentence out of him in that hour and I think what is anna going to think what’s she going to think that we’ve done this whole time obviously and

Building writing skills

You know we would be working on his development that way but to put pen to paper was really challenging at the beginning yeah I don’t know a lot of boys like that they don’t see for more than 20 minutes but look the progress was in the year by the end of the year he could see and He could concentrate in an hour and that’s what I’m saying he was he he he totally wasn’t prepared for six plus no uh but seven plus was different yes so a year makes quite a lot of difference it does I think you’re right because Audio was very much I need pen and paper and that’s that’s the main point because she would see quietly and she will write her ideas but she would not tell the person who she’s never seen in her life yes all the stories and all the ideas

That she has so it’s it’s kind of it’s it’s um yeah but all the children are different some of them we’re very um we don’t care to talk we can you know they’re confident They’re confident you know we can talk to a stranger we can it took I would say a good six weeks Before she truly warmed up to us I wish I would not yeah I would not talk to the person who she doesn’t know yeah because when we had the interview on achievable school the actual teacher

Asked how is ali like is that she’s confident yes she’s confident but she has to know you yes she has to know to whom she’s talking about what she’s talking like what she can see it’s it’s difficult Yes yeah it took a long time even even with me because I didn’t work with earlier um towards the end but I did work with her at the I’d say probably the majority of of the Prep um probably the last three four months she worked with chanel um they took a good six weeks before before she’d actually warmed up to me and would talk to me

Properly properly meaning give me her ideas yeah because if you ask even how are you she’ll say yes yeah and and so it’s it’s not a a Short process is what I’m trying to say nicholas was the opposite he he would just say what’s on his mind and that’s it yeah even it’s the same thing but that’s fine obviously very different children so the challenge for us Was how do we obviously they know each other so that helped that made a big difference um but the challenge for us was they both learn very differently and how how do we

Deliver that same lesson um but in a different way and that that was that was quite difficult so so the first thing really we had to do was assess how they learn um [Music] And and then sort of take it from there so at that age it’s quite important to have um something tactile that they can you know nicholas enjoyed all this like math games and uh 100 square yeah yeah yeah so we used to do a lot of math uh Mental maths on that square board yeah yeah I think he really and I think that helped him because then you visualize and then yes you remember also visually um an hour and year too for for one of the game times um

Teacher gives them a 100 table but in terms of a puzzle yes but you need to mentally know where it is he does it quite quickly oh that’s good yeah so so that that you know and then using cubes to

Play and challenge

Help them learn place and all of that that made a big difference um for earlier it was more about the challenge of how quickly she could finish it it was always okay not to this [Music] foreign that was quite interesting and and I really did enjoy working with both of Them I’m really missing them actually but hey ho that’s life um wait there might be another implant you’re not going to go through that process again no no I mean I uh well if I don’t I believe that

There is no need to say torture or train excessively your kid if you can avoid it absolutely I mean grammar schools are good but I don’t agree with parents who tutor them to death just to get to grad school They need to well every piece of evidence uh every piece of research shows that you can only up I forget the figure now I you can only up Your child’s uh ability by about 10 percent so you know if uh and grammar schools in particular uh you the seven plus and independent schools don’t do this but the

Grammar school used bell curve which so it’s a standardized score so what they do is they take the year and month of the child’s Date of birth and then apply a formula to that so the idea is that the the younger children get a higher mark for the same yeah You can only push that by about 10 so if your child is is for whatever reason in the bottom 30 of that bell curve it doesn’t matter how much you do to them they’re never going to get there yeah at

That particular point in time that doesn’t mean they’re not going to be successful in what they do I mean let’s say that you can finish luxury location uh oxford university and still be no one in your career so it’s not representative but we obviously wanted Our kids to do better than average and obviously it’s every parent worry if your kid is somewhere behind or but I I I I if I can afford pain for school and not to tell my kid To you know I do understand when the need calls for um we cannot afford we need to get this ground because I want my kids to succeed but they cannot afford it but if you can afford it I I just want someone what’s the point yeah yeah I understand so I can afford

It and I don’t need children will naturally be like they need to find a way yes you can only do so much and then beyond that yes we very often do get over the years we’ve had parents who’ve Come to us particularly for adopted class and will want every hour you can give them and we’ve got we’ve had parents in the past where the child has had a different tutor every night So the minute we find out okay that’s what’s happening a child’s got five different tutors we generally won’t work with them because what we’re looking for is a partnership you know the way that we worked with you guys and I know it was seven plus not 11

Plus but the way that we worked with you guys was very much okay this is what we’ve done with them uh in in the tuition lesson this is what they need to do at home and this is the support they need at home and you guys were brilliant at that You know and that’s one of the reasons they were both successful if you had simply left them um and said okay this is the homework get it done and not had any real input particularly Because they’re so young um but you’re right it’s not it’s half halfway tutor and I’m sorry to say 80 percent because you have to force them there’s no way that you can okay you can force me close to like you know make sure that he doesn’t

Work at the lesson but at home and he’s different you know like then I still have to make an effort find time find you know to make sure that he does work homework additional work and everything where you know he’s not focused Make sure that he does it you know yeah because if you think about it um I did the calculation I I forgive me I don’t remember exactly but the if if your child is with us for a year and they come to us in two or three hours A week it’s generally about a term’s worth terms of school time and we have to fit the whole of the curriculum in that time yeah so if if a parent just leaves it to

The tuition center in a tutor yeah it doesn’t work in my opinion no it doesn’t like but with the education wise you know at school they give him a bit of a bit of there a bit of fractions a bit of mental math a bit of something Else but we don’t walk with them through you know like for salmon plus time timetable uh fractions so but we don’t have a deeply so we have a basic knowledge but sometimes We forget because we’ve been doing that two months ago and never since so there’s two reasons for that one is the schools are generally geared up to work particularly the school that I and nicholas are at

Uh that school is geared up um for 11 plus so when they get to year five when they get to year five is when the push will happen in that sense my opinion Like why I was torturing hello come on you have to do it you have to do it not for enforcing her because I find if the child is taking easy for four years To do it in one year it’s quite difficult which is difficult so we don’t have level constantly to to do the big jump in the final year just before the exam yes yes that’s why I told her look we have

To start it earlier advice um it will be not possible especially with the lockdown happening in the middle yeah that that would have been if we would not start like a year before we would not be able to to do it yes yeah but also Um obviously it’s the system of this country it’s not about your knowledge about how the system to pass the paper it’s how many foods you can jump through yeah but also like you need even keys at seven plus they Need to learn how to do the papers for this school because the kid could be very intelligent like really above average but without knowledge of that system of past papers of what they’re

Looking for there’s no way there’s no guarantee so you need to know you need to learn the system of passing the exam and that’s that’s part of the process yeah so what a lot of tutors will do is just do paper of the paper of the Paper of the paper and we generally won’t work like that as you’ve experienced we will focus on the topic so yeah basics first and then like you say we build that deep knowledge in that topic and only at That point of light so with similes for example we got to a point where she just learned how to write with a simile you know put a sibling to a sentence and we had to then pull her back because she

Wanted a silly in every single sentence that she could possibly write because that was her sort of a new favorite tool I still think that until tell nicholas you write an essay Yeah but you know it’s exactly what the system is looking for you know and you need to know what are they looking for yes so because the kids can write a beautiful story but it might be too simple for the for the examiner or You need to show your work and quite like nicholas for example he would even now he would skip step of showing how he does math he just does it in his hand yes put the answer and we have always the challenge that I had to tell

You one example you have to write down even if it’s like two plus four two equal four and then another step four plus two like you need to show it and he he forgets yeah he forgets he because for him yeah I can’t write it in the head what why do I need to show it you know you’ve Got my answer yeah exactly and you just put the answer and you know some people will think oh you just maybe took it out lucky you know but you see the problem with that is because obviously the school doesn’t know nicholas Like if he did it with me after having worked with him for the period of time I did I got to know him and I got to know his processes but in an exam condition obviously they ask for that because the

School doesn’t know because he doesn’t know they don’t know what these processes are I mean short of see chickwell does the I don’t know whether they still do but they they do half a day down they with the children obviously they didn’t be doing lockdown

Interviews

But yeah they do have a deal with children yeah so they get to know the child because we did it online and it was yeah it’s different this year but generally they’ll ask even at 11 plus they ask uh For they’ll talk to the parents they’ll ask for the child to come in with something of interest so a couple of years ago we were working with a boy at the other center and I said what do you so when we were Sort of talking through the interview process with him um I said well what are you going to take in they’ve asked you to take in something and he said um oh I make aeroplanes out of pieces of paper and in my head I thought in all the

Years I’ve done this I’ve never come across that before but and I immediately honestly immediately just wrote that off thinking well that’s not something that that you can go in and talk about but then We talked about it he was making really intricate complicated um like origami like origami type things um he did get in in the end um but that that was really interesting so even at 11 plus They will ask you to bring in something as a sort of icebreaker because they know the children get nervous oh nicole nichols was asked on the interview what’s your favorite sport listen

Well he played minico and he he plays basketball he likes to play football but I think She did I ask him why yeah and they asked him did you play and he said yes yes he did play minigolf and I don’t think he knows the difference between oh So for him mini golf is gold oh well it is he’s literal so the cause is yeah and even um

Yesterday we were reading a book and uh in the book there was um a boy um discussing that golf is probably the most boring sport in the world and nico’s like no but golf is so interesting [Music] On tv I I thought I will show you today see you um in terms of the schools that you applied for um perhaps we can just have a quick chat About why you chose those particular schools I don’t know so okay I’ll we we we applied for both bunkers and chippewa but we our first choice was chingle because um they look at the

At the kid like a well-rounded kid so they want kids that are intelligent and yet sporty enough and because he’s we want him to develop sport and he’s very sporty kid and he’s very Energetic we try to you know swimming in basketball and whatever running he wants like scooter classes and stuff so um he will not be happy if he will put just in pure academic frame and even During tutoring for seven plus we did lots of lessons with you but we compensated it with lots of sport classes otherwise live because I know that was a bit of a challenge during breakdown wasn’t it yeah so even even after

Um your lessons we will take him to do like scooter classes or swimming and it will his day will be until 8 but he would he would be happier yeah having okay we promised him you have to sit and focus for an hour um Academically but we we we will take you to the sport afterwards and that was his um kind of um motivations he’s released yeah he’s releasing his motivation absolutely it’s interesting because I’ve never really thought about it but he talked very little about All of these other classes yeah but it’s it’s safe it’s like gold you said that I play the guitar it’s like I force you to play the guitar I love playing the guitar

You love playing mario but actually playing nintendo helps me with a play in the guitar because it’s the same two fingers and he he manages not to look so much like I would for example yeah for him it’s easier but you know here basketball And swimming and all this come up foreign the solution you know she would make up a story on the wall yeah for Example at one interview they ask her what instrument do you play she said recorder and then on what level twinkle twinkle I know she doesn’t even know how to play twinkle twinkle but she made it on the ball wow wow I have to impress first

I ask do you know how to play twinkle twinkle she said no but they need the answer so she she knew that she needed to answer is amazing which is good skill huh yeah but it’s a natural skill you know that’s not something you can teach No but you develop it so in terms of the schools that you went for elena can we talk a little bit about that yeah we applied for some paul’s And then we at the end she should go through all these schools but then at the end we should find her because to be honest I felt sorry for her at the end I thought it would be not fair on on her

School choice and travel

Because of the travel because of the child and because she’s a son of baby yeah so she’s too young to have so much pressure which is a bankrupt still academic it’s still a good school and it’s less pressure yeah the samples were very Impressed with her uh yes actually you made more and so the first result you had was yes and but because of the um lockdown uh all the schools changed the format just Two weeks before the exam yes so we had to uh in two weeks when we got to know what is will be actually in the exam because they sent us a list like what you they will be doing at actual exam the process would

Yes so we found out that it will be uh non-verbal verbal creative writing uh spelling it’s even the spelling course special spelling test was in there yes so we had to adjust Very quickly yes but she did really well she did really well and I think that was the easiest exam because actually in bankrupt we had to go to the school and see the exam at school yes yes but in I think that was the the easiest one Because I I saw how she done it today I’m like okay I must admit I I just probably about a month before the exams were due initially um I did an eight plus paper with her and she

Did that paper so I sat and just watched her and just watched where she was struggling thinking okay she will she will probably need help with the the more challenging stuff in there she did that paper in half the time that was allocated And I think she had two two really silly errors in that paper the thing is with alia she will she can do silly mistakes yeah if I tell her I look 1000 seven hundred sixty-five please do the Column method don’t do it in your head enjoy right I know the answer and she would do silly mistake because in her head she cannot put minus one yeah yeah

She’s capable but she’s very stubborn if she has in her head no I will do it all the maths in my head I will not write it down that will be and that will be the error That that actually was probably with both of them one of the biggest challenges we had to say to the show you’re working but little yeah I mean kids they don’t understand that on the exam you have to follow the thirteen method And at seven plus you don’t even understand it so they will they will skip the steps yes um I think because for them to do the numbers in the head that’s a that’s the competition that’s really when they can show off to each other

But they don’t think that it’s not showing between them it’s to show somebody else so I think it’s it’s because we’re very competitive but we still don’t get it like way way to apply that thing yes yes Because ali and nicholas they would you know we would sit and crush you know like I am the first no I done that first no you don’t know I know it would be the you know day to day thing yes particularly because obviously they They’re they’re same school same school as they know each other out of school and so so I think that that makes a difference I think it would be maybe slightly different if we’d kept them in um a class with other students

And I still it’s uh um we tried them like in russian school online despite that there are other children they still compete with each other yes it’s not it’s it’s we would see you know nicholas would sit here and they would Still be like okay I’m just yeah so if we can just talk a little bit about rubbish tuition And your experience with us I think um because I think we’ve got quite a lot of ground in terms of the general education unless it was something you need you wanted to add to that

I mean for seven plus you obviously need to choose right school I mean you can try to everything but you have to always keep in mind the choice of school and what school is suitable for your kid and in terms of red bridges I think you’re doing all This necessary to prepare our kids actually yeah and obviously the fact that you tailor investments to each kid you challenge them you give them new topics you most importantly cover the gaps in Basics because you you can make you can tutor them to pass things out but they need to come to school to new school and be on a good level uh be in in comparison to the kids that are there they should be on the level yeah

And if they have gaps in basics basics master basics english that that will um will show quite quickly when they start next year yes so and that’s most important I I think for us a lot of it was about An ease with every child not just with eileen with nicholas it it’s about making sure that whatever we whatever we do with them will help them in the long run you know for us it isn’t just about okay We’ll teach you how to pass the exam we’ll teach you how to jump through that hoop it’s it’s about seeing how far we can get that particular child to develop their skills in the

Amount of time we have allocated that they’re with us um and we obviously have to start with absolute basics but we’ll try and do it so that it’s it’s it’s it’s fun so times table challenges for Example um very common in school very common in in how they’re done but I mean one of the things we’ll do is the the tutor will sit and work and they have to try and beat the tutor And that a lot of children maybe competition towards the tutor yeah that works really really well

Quite challenging work he was just of fun you know like come on outside so sometimes it would be two years ahead and we did that with uh uh we worked with a girl who again actually uh 11 plus Um she she sat for severals and gossip balls but they did for the same reason they didn’t take it uh in the end they chose henrietta garnett and she moved from forest to henrietta Barnett um she’d finish the class she finished the 11th class class and there’d be a I think it was a GCSE physics class going on and it was like year 11 GCSE physics

And she’d just go and join the class while she was waiting for her mom to pick her up and she was actually stronger in that without being taught than some of the children actually sitting that GCSE class sort of reminds me of of What arya was doing with the maths so you know it it it helps to challenge them I think and they they do enjoy that thing they do because they feel because especially when we’re little They like to be big yes and they like to show that I know that I am I’m small but it doesn’t mean anything yeah okay so in terms of our tutors

And in terms of our processes do you think that you would firstly recommend us to anybody I know the answer to that so don’t worry about answering that We won’t be sitting here and generally what you think might have made your processes easier if there is anything in particular It was kind of easy enough I think that you would explain them how to do it and then we would just practice at all minds I think there’s nothing nothing else to to to add it up yeah I mean as as we said you tether to

The needs of each cave you understand how the mind works and you know you give them different types of work so that’s all you can expect from the tutor and to be attentive to what your kid needs yeah that’s that’s excellent from the appreciation Thank you okay so thank you very much for coming in thank you um and I have to say congratulations to you both again I’m so tough honestly I’m I’m not just saying I’m really Without being oh grammar school I mean the other thing with seven plus is um you tutor them to get to the schools but if you for if your kid is smart enough why to tutor them now and not at 11 plus

When you can also try grammar schools yeah what I mean no I mean like you can you can miss seven plus yes and just do eleven plus or concentrate the levels because by doing seven plus you know it’s additional structure it’s additional

Keeping childhood in perspective

Pressure like if you if you decide that you want your kid to go to grammar school at 11 plus just keep seven plus and just concentrate yeah let’s give them a bit of childhood that’s my opinion yes so yeah because it is grueling 7 plus It’s not easy no and I I but for quarantine I don’t think we would have done it on nicholas because we’re both working parents we just won’t have time the only we had time because we’re sitting at home yes but if you come back from work pick up Your kid from after school and you have to like you literally have two to three hours to feed and to when do you add this additional hours to tutor yes you don’t you you don’t we

You know we we had lessons on monday and wednesday we could like we could do it because we’re at home we could bring them to the tuition center within 10 minutes work from car yes and but in normal scenario when we open up we Cannot do it yes so um I think there’s a lot of challenges at seven plus but now you know I my my view is I’m not gonna press nicholas I want if he’s gonna fall back we’re gonna come back If he stays on the level just you know until she says he gets to develop it that’s it yeah yeah yeah he can do whatever he can do

Thank you you