0:00 Introducing Elena and Camden Image Gallery
2:56 Starting a business
10:48 Administration
19:02 The in-person experience
27:03 Overheads
32:31 Stress and sleep
46:05 Systems
54:12 Franchising and independence
59:41 Pride in a business
1:05:07 The work behind the scenes

Introducing Elena and Camden Image Gallery

[Music] The Education Lounge podcast so yeah we’ve got a very special guest today yeah so this is Elena hello from Camden image gallery so Elena runs uh has been running the business for how long now uh it’ll be nine years on the 6th of December yeah so it was um the 6th of December 2013 where we open to the public 2013 yes that was roughly the same well like a few months nine months maybe before we started our first location when we started at very similar times um how’s it going yeah it’s going really well really well obviously the first

Couple of years are always the hardest when you’re setting up a business um but now moving on into the ninth year um everything’s going very well yeah we’ve had a well we when did we start liking comparison it Was like well I mean the technically 2007 when we were like tutoring in Halls and things but in terms of like an actual premises like our first premises was 2014. yeah I think it might have been September so which is like yeah nine months after after the gallery opened they’re very similar similar timing similar time yeah yeah we’ve worked together we’ve seen how our businesses have have grown together yeah yeah these two went to University together

[Laughter] so before for a brief period before like doing what we’re doing now I was Freelance graphic designer for a little while um and then yeah and then I asked I asked PJ to design the Camden Image Gallery logo which is the same logo that we still use now um that I still absolutely love so thank you so much for Designing such a I’m Quite such a brilliant logo I’m quite proud of having that book yeah it worked really well and we you know there were lots of designs leading up to that to that point it’s such a it’s such a key moment I think especially for yeah it

Was one of my first like proper um like designs there’s actually still being used like I’ve done other ones um like people at Uni um I don’t think they’re using that company anymore but yours is yours is Still going still in circulation yeah the logo is is printed on many many things yeah proudly yeah no I really enjoyed that one yeah so how was it starting up for you like when you first opened like what sort of things did you have to do were

Starting a business

There things that you had to do that you just didn’t see coming or I think when you’re setting a business up from scratch there I think there are lots and lots of things that you need to do so obviously research is key but then there are so many things that that come Along that you realize that need to be fixed and sorted by a certain date for example um card machines um fire extinguishers all of the the safety aspects when you’re opening up a business making sure the insurance is in Place to set up for the right date and public liability insurance and then contents Insurance building Insurance to make sure that all of that is in place so I think there are lots of lots of things like that that all come up and and that all need to be done at the same

Time as well as dealing with um inquiries and just everything to set up the space to make sure that it’s it’s ready for the public and that more importantly it’s safe for the public and legally covered yeah which is which is One of the most important things when I think you’re starting up any business to make sure that all of the the safety and legal points are in place and that goes for for any business that anyone wants to set up it was similar it was quite similar to ours like with the first one In in seven Kings ours was an old um like news agents I think yours your building was as well wasn’t it mine was a news agents too yeah so I mean we have rebranded since Paul we’ve had to like you know map out

The space think I want this sort of area to be for like payments this area to be like a meeting room this area to be where my desk goes and type for you for us it’s like where do the kids sit and like how many classes and all that sort of thing fear is more Where do you want the artwork where do you want your desk to go and where would the priority like which you know which space is um which space has the most light or lighting yeah or spacing or um it was important for me when Redesigning the building where to put certain plug plug sockets so that’s something that when um when I was hiring spaces so my background is photography so when I was looking at spaces to hire with other photographers or other artists

That was something that we struggled to find you do need plug points um either for extra lighting or extra sound or if somebody wanted to to Showcase a video um for example so that was something That when I was redesigning the space I was thinking about okay well that’s there’s it’s important to put a plug socket on every single wall and this Alcove would be used for this particular thing and then that ocher would be used for that particular thing this uh so yeah and every room thinking about what Its best use would be yeah your one’s a little bit more complicated in terms of setup because you have so many different things that that you could do with for us it’s mainly just meetings and teaching classroom space yeah but in

Terms of like plug points and things yeah it’s um because you’ve got a visual you’ve got a like visual stuff you’ve got video stuff you’ve had performances there as well so I think it’d be useful just for listeners to sort of have an concept of what you Your business and and if you describe it in detail yeah of course yeah so an hour and overview so um so the gallery is a higher space gallery and what that means is either solo artists groups collectors curators they will approach me with the Work that they’re interested in displaying and then if the work is suitable for the gallery then I can send them the higher prices we display a variety of genres so I work with photographers illustrators sculptors painters and as you mentioned

Before we have some performance evenings as well some poetry readings but the main the space is mainly used for wall hanging pieces or for sculptural work on plinths um and in terms of the style of work or the genre of work we accept a variety of Genres so then the client would choose how long they would like to display their work for and which dates they prefer and then we would book in those dates stop promotion that would be advertised on the gallery website as well as all the social media sites and The gallery mailing list and then I would help them install the exhibition host the opening reception and be there every single day so it’s fully invigilated whilst the exhibition is open and then taking down and then helping with sales as well they would

Pay for the like space um and when they sell how does that work so there’s a 20 commission that the gallery would take on sales so that covers running around costs such as any meetings or with any buyers or collectors with that sort of stuff and Uh and use of the card machine obviously it’s a business account so there are charges through that as well and um so we would package everything as well so with the appropriate packaging without your phone Bob wrap boxing yeah um yeah and then arrange with the buyer Collector when they want to come and collect so that 20 covers the costs yeah um and for me it was important to to keep that low that’s been it’s always been 20 and I haven’t I haven’t increased it I don’t see myself increasing at any time in the new future um because the main point of of me

Wanting to open the space was to help the artists and to help the curators so yes it is a business yes it does need to bring money in to be able to pay pay for everything and keep keep the space alive and keep it free and accessible for the Public um but the commission on sales covers those costs and then the artist sits back and relaxes and I put 80 into their account yeah how much thinking did you put into you know that 20 to start with and you Know like did you Did you sort of calculate or project well I I worked out what the the average price point of of the work being sold for and then what that 20 would be and what that would mean in relation to the business

Um so so yes that’s what I’ve kept it as so but the main my main income and and the way that I can pay the the rent and bills Stuff Etc that comes from the hire of the gallery and then the commission on sales is an extra bonus so sometimes it may Buy 10 light bulbs for example and then other times it may pay for a lot more yeah Power exhibition quite a good way to yeah like two different two different Avenues yeah what do you think we’re like the main Challenge and sort of main challenges that you came up against that because obviously like for instance we had covered that would have been quite challenging um for your business but I’m just wondering like what other sort of challenges along the way that were sort

Of less unique um do you encounter week to week and day to day I think my main challenge is probably the fact that I can’t clone myself we’ve said there’s so many times We said we should stop all this admin stop all these emails and let’s just like let’s focus on cloners you know when you figure that out yeah so I do have I have got some brilliant staff members that help when it comes to installing exhibitions taking down hosting events where I can’t be in three

Administration

Rooms at once um and promotion and things like that but the the everyday admin that every day running of the business um paying everything answering everything it all everything falls on my shoulders so I would say that is that’s The biggest challenge the fact that so I run the business on my own and I’m I’m proud and I’m very happy with everything that I’ve achieved and I work very hard every single day for everything that I’ve achieved um but that is definitely the the hardest part I would say Yeah what would you say take that takes out the most amount of time I think I know the answer is probably very similar I think we’re there with any business I think I think admin I think um emails and meetings uh phone calls

Website updates fly designs um all of the the admin based work takes up a lot of a lot of time with my business and and very similar probably to to your business to to many uh many other businesses especially small businesses where there is only a small Team that that runs the whole show yeah have you looked much into like automation by automating things So like um because we’ve been thinking about it um things like Karen karenly where we um Ultimate well you because it would work quite well for your one because you could have you could link it to your calendar and then people can book book in you can read from your calendar and whatever else I have considered that and again because it is just me it does work better if

Somebody would contact me directly because things change minute by minute um at the moment as well just before we started um speaking I had availability say for example in in March 2023 Um but then I could check my emails after we’re finished now and that could be booked so I think I think it’s always it’s it still works better for me if somebody contacts me directly especially because everything is so unique as well in terms of how long somebody wants the Space and also sometimes there might be clients that choose to hire the gallery for an extra day to take down the exhibition normally we can take down the last the last evening before as we close to the public take down would normally

Take about an hour an hour and a half um it’s much much faster as there’s no curation when it comes to taking down and packing up an exhibition but so that’s something that that does frequently get added on um so that’s something that I know I always keep a couple of of the days of Leeway so that’s something that that would be harder for me personally to to have on a calendar um yes I could block out those days but then that would be confusing if somebody else had already hired that space would see the online calendar so for me It’s better to for them to contact me directly and then I can let them know what’s available and what’s not yeah fair enough I think it’s quite important for us to sort of uh stay quite disciplined in terms of when when people can book in and can

Contact us obviously we’re a tuition business so between like four and seven it’s not the ideal time to be taking calls Saturdays it’s a bit hectic and it can be difficult to answer sort of inquiries and stuff like that so Setting aside specific time for that sort of contact is quite important do you do you do that do you sort of or do you have to sort of at any different moment if you get a call you’ve got to Take that call I do I do take phone calls at most most days and most most times and I think with me as well my business so is I work with a lot of international artists and a lot of international curators as well so what what might be their normal working hours

Is very different to us um and that’s where our businesses is odd are different because a lot of your clients would be local um clients um whereas with with mine I do work with artists all over the world and curators all over the world so that is why I do If it is yeah I do answer my answer my calls at all hours yeah it’s definitely yeah it’s difficult for us with um I’ve put in a thing where I’ve said well we’ll only accepting phone calls Monday to Thursday 10 to 10 to 4. it doesn’t stop other people from ringing but that you know it it will deter some people there’s just there’s just times where we literally cannot get to the phone yeah we do get people saying like we’ve

Tried calling we’ve tried calling and it’s like we’re just there’s just no way of us answering the time that you’re calling well I thought my wife just talking more about like small businesses generally and their sort of important Important uh role in in our economy because most most people employed through small medium-sized businesses in the UK um and yeah it’s something that’s actually quite under Threat I think um especially in person businesses because we’re High Street business essentially so we we actually have physical premises um what are some of the businesses that are what are some of the challenges that

Are specific to our types of business um I mean the whole online thing is a challenge to most businesses if you look at the High Street now like say for example loud and i3 It’s all food coffee Nails yeah estate agents yeah that stuff that’s like the four and then estate agents A lot of them are then they’re going as well yeah a lot of it is even the banks are going as well like NatWest To just close a load of banks it’s all um service based especially as more and more people aren’t using cash like there’s no need for a yeah like if you look at what monster is doing for example yeah so what would what would be the

Equivalent threat for like what we’re doing so like some something like monzo or Starling where they’re like branchless Banks yeah well obviously the equivalent like you’ve got e tutoring businesses but then I don’t Oh yeah wear something like a bank actually can somewhat improve aspects of its service by delivering online I think for your business so an Arts business It’s so much better when it’s physical like it’s it is night and day yeah and then you know I think it’s the same for us I think I think so too I think especially with with your business yes obviously we’ve all been through three

Lockdowns here in the UK I know that you know that you can teach remotely but everybody knows that it’s it’s not the same you don’t get that that same one-to-one interaction and the same same with my business I I didn’t move Anything digital in terms of my exhibitions all of my artists and curators chose to wait and then we postponed the exhibitions to when we were legally allowed to reopen to the public again so during that time I did receive a lot of Emails with with somebody you know with with those asking me to look at their virtual exhibition and I found that the the spaces the virtual spaces that were designed looked absolutely amazing but I found that when you were moving through those virtual spaces with your mouse the

The in-person experience

Artwork was distorted and that’s like a perspective thing yeah and that’s so that’s one thing and also you can’t replace that feeling that I personally receive when you walk into a gallery Museum it’s it’s the space as a whole It’s the size of the artwork it’s the way that it’s been lit it’s the war that it’s been placed on it’s the the the the colors that you’ll see with your eyes it’s an intangible Feeling yeah and you can’t recreate that I don’t think you can recruit so in terms of talk going back to your question on on is there anything that you think could completely replace our businesses I don’t think there is because there is still a market for what

What we both do and that’s not something that can be replaced and if it were going to be replaced it would have been replaced by now especially with three lockdowns where everything had to be moved online but the second that we were both able to Legally reopen we found that everyone came back because there was that that need for one-to-one tuition and also the need to see artwork in person yeah well it’s like actually the the whole thing is You’re so well in the gallery space I do think like just the social aspect is is hugely important and then what I found with tradition is that obviously you’re disseminating the same information but most people

Receive a lot of the information in actually non-verbally so what I found was quite noticeable was that even if I was saying the same thing because I’d lacked the sort of um maybe some of the gestures and stuff Like that and sort of walking around and that interactive aspect some students found that less engaging and I I think that was so we had some people who were doing really really well before lockdown and then they like fall off basically Because of you know that challenge of actually learning online and they just lose interest because it’s just a screen it’s not it doesn’t feel the same there’s a layer of separation yeah I agree it was yeah you go the

Social aspect as well like you’re saying with a gallery there’s a social aspect of when the kids are learning together yeah they’re it’s more than them just like listening to the teacher and whatever else is like they interact with each other they learn off of each other yeah They’re surprising because I learned a lot about the students during that time because I was like oh I didn’t realize how much they learned from just like hand gestures and stuff like that but then and I was trying to do similar hand gestures online and just to help them Understand it a bit well but you still lose that you know some of them just switched off yeah after after time because it’s it’s just not the same I think also with um with things being online going back to

Both of us with with viewing an exhibition online on a screen or also trying to learn through a screen there are so many distractions that the individual has around them whereas when you when we’re placed in that natural Environment when somebody comes to to Redbridge Tuition or wants to come into an art gallery they’re surrounded by the environment that they should be surrounded in in you know which would which would help them learn and which would help them yeah appreciate everything that’s like One of our I think one of our business goals is to create a space which is safe and secure for children to learn and then we do a good job of that like providing that environment for learning um there’s a lot of tuition centers when

You when you actually go inside they’re like small or unfriendly and not cozy that kind of thing yeah they’re sterile yeah that’s it yeah yeah um so yeah creating that environment Because I think now in business it’s all actually about experiences people pay for the experience it’s like um it’s like even like retail stores they become more like an experience based thing Apple Your experience yeah a lot of them they have some people play music people change the lighting Ikea no crazy they’re all shutting down as well yeah so I think it’s a shame and also I

Think there’s a lot of there’s just I was actually I’m quite disappointed in in governments and their inability to actually understand how to improve improve the situation for small Businesses because I think is actually quite obvious like what to do yeah but that might not be their aim true but I think like they’ve also got to consider what kind of country that they want to Live in like it might not be say so having loads of physical businesses it’s probably not as profitable as having loads of online businesses but it makes life a hell of a lot more interesting having those small businesses on the

High Street right yeah so I think there’s a sort of value judgment that that people need to make it’s like if you want higher streets to be interesting and full of life and vibrant like loud and High Street and Stuff like that but even like any High Street business is under threat if you don’t just want it to be just cafes and restaurants and have that variety like an ecosystem of businesses then there needs to be a plan And I I feel like that hasn’t been addressed success like by successive governments I know we’ve had basically the same one but they haven’t there’s been very little attempts or very and probably very little understanding of the needs of small

Businesses you know business rates I’m gonna say the overheads alone are just like yours must be as mad as ours are like we’ve got to I I think they’ve got to ask the question do we do we want the UK to just be this business where There’s loads of warehouses a few coffee shops and things like that and well you have you you lack the sort of entrepreneurial support that’s needed for small business like especially a physical small business Um it just goes back to making everything sterile doesn’t it yeah yeah like there are some things that on like you can do everything for efficiency but I think there’s a lot to be said for like trying to create and build a country

Um that is actually interesting to live in [Music] um like and and I mean you say okay well that might not be their aim but I mean I don’t understand that like there may be higher agendas that we Don’t know about but like do they want to exist in that world probably uh you know warehousing they can avoid a lot of business rates and things like that that we we have to pay so that’s a cheaper way of running Business but it’s also a lot less fun right Warehouse businesses in terms of how they look and appear to the public and yeah it doesn’t grow that out of it that social feeling that we were talking about before it’s the same situation um she’s done like a larger scale yeah and

Overheads

Then uh online businesses they don’t have a they obviously avoid a lot of the overheads uh physical business well this is this is something I wanted to talk about because I’ve I’ve always like I’ve said if I was to Start again in like start another business I don’t think it would be this it wouldn’t be physical no what would well I mean oh yeah I’d want it to be on online I don’t want it to be geographically Freeing yes um don’t have to deal with people as much I don’t mind dealing with people but you know sometimes you do get you’re bound to get some difficult people that you have to deal with right

Um it’s just sort of cuts all that out and mainly the overheads that’s the main things killing all of these businesses yeah so yeah I don’t know what I would do maybe some sort of like content yeah creation I don’t understand it because they’ve got they still have business rates and stuff like that and yet they’re complaining about how High Street businesses is dying and I’m like well that’s one massive barrier to because they it’s extremely expensive right so If you were if you ask this question about it if you were to start again would you do what you’re doing now or do you have something else in mind I would I would do the same exactly exactly the same um yeah I’m very happy with with what I

Have done and I think the only thing that I would do differently is perhaps the opening hours um for almost nine years um I have been open seven days a week um during exhibition dates to the public But moving forward starting from next week I will be open five days a week to the public which is much more manageable especially as I run the business on my own as I said I do have some wonderful um part-time staff members that do that That do come in and help and they are absolutely amazing and I’m I’m very very grateful for all of for all of their help um but again running the business the everyday day-to-day work of everything um is me so

Being open to the public five days a week and having those two days where I wouldn’t have to be in the gallery for the opening hours all day would mean that I’m able to um you know I need to have somebody to come and re-update the shutter system For example um so that that is a new assistant so that’s something that I can only do in between exhibition dates so moving forward um bringing in many Builders or electricians or or buying more cleaning products or reorganizing the storage room things like that I do have that day Where I can focus that one day and book things in advance where I will have those two days close to the public so that’s the I think the only thing that I would have done differently um as as it has been absolutely brilliant open seven days a week but um

For example I’ve just finished 24 days in a row um and that is that’s a lot for a a human to to take on every single day so I think that’s the only thing I would do differently but but my business I would I would still do again well There’s a couple of things that you said that are going to lead me on to my next couple of questions but before we do that what would you do um it’s hard to say because I really like what I do so enjoy that aspect I think I think it I probably would have done a bit more online tradition and on my online online tuition or online like um sort of an online business of some kind of do you mean naturally teaching what

Do you mean like creating the books and that sort of thing mixture because obviously like yeah okay they sort of I think they to make good content it’s quite difficult to do it without actually teaching because actually I’m Technically a an English teacher um and I specialize in teaching English as a foreign language I mean technically technically um probably would have done more of that because you can take more advantage of The the sort of dead hours in the day here is it what because you don’t have oh yeah yeah yeah you mean like with time time difference that’s why for instance when I was yeah I was teaching a student from China and she was online at like 10 p.m no 10 A.M

Um in the morning but for her it’s at the evening yeah so yeah I think there’s there would there would have been quite a lot of potential that way yeah um well now that we have the manager in Place in in seven Kings um I am going to be looking more into like how to push more of the publishing stuff yeah um because it is you know which I mean we’ve started to add to it but

Stress and sleep

Because we haven’t concentrated as much on that as as we need to to make it a success so you mentioned about working seven days a week and that’s all thing one of the things I wanted to talk about was the pros and cons of running your own Business and one of them one of the biggest cons would be stress and health health and stress I mean I mean you you know about my one yeah I’ve got one gray hair I wish I have many I wish I had one I’ll Go ahead okay because you were you like I don’t know if you still I think you still are you living on like Pro Plus and that was the yes the first couple of years the first couple years of business um where there’s just so much to do so many

Things to constantly think about you’re you’re constantly trying to improve and I still am now I think everybody should always constantly try to to improve themselves and especially their business but yes I think in the first Couple of years of business though they were the most difficult they were the most difficult because I wasn’t I wasn’t able to sleep very well and I think as we all know sleep deprivation is is one of the the biggest things to say it’s one of the hardest things really because when you’re not when you’re not sleeping Well it affects your your mood it affects your body as well and we need sleep as human beings so I think that’s the that’s the hardest well you also need a certain type of sleep so like very true you need non-rem sleep and so

Actually if you’re arrested so like actually the hard thing for me is actually preparing to sleep so like actually putting like the hour or two before sleeping making sure those are Optimal guys I don’t really have that issue with sleep if anything I sleep too much but mine is um probably dependent on like my condition and stuff so it’s a bit different I’ll talk we’ll talk about that in a minute but yeah I thought I think Yeah sleep’s not really been an issue unless there’s something like major going on like like I’m going into lockdown and having to move 200 students 200 parents and like 15 staff 20 staff

Onto an online onto an 40 classes 45 classes onto an online platform that we didn’t yet have in 48 hours that was hella stressful very stressful so weekends like when stuff like that happened yeah I have to I can’t sleep I’m like thinking like how okay how do I connect this and how do I do that and how do I what’s the best way of getting everyone to do that and not that and so all that stuff goes on in your mind all the time but on a day-to-day week to week I’m I don’t really struggle with sleep and see what you’ve just described is is My life every single day yeah um and maybe that’s also a difference between men and women as well because women do tend to overthink and I would say that I am a I’m quite typical in that in that sense I do I’m I’m constantly thinking about everything and because I I care so

Much about the business and it is just me running the business um I am constantly thinking about what I can do or what I could do better or how I can how I can help the individual or how I can change um this promotional aspect to make sure That that reaches more people um or how could I display something that would give it more light for example or yeah yeah no I mean I don’t think that’s just a woman thing because I I overthink 24 7. and but you’re able to sleep so That’s good I’m usually tired from from work and like you know I’ve like from stress ended up in hospital like twice and that condition where I I can’t take on all the nutrients of what I’m eating

And the way that your body works is that all that stuff gets repaired while you’re sleeping so if I haven’t slept I’m just more than seven hours I’m Ill I have like aches and I feel sick so it’s different like I need to sleep for my Body to repair itself of course well it’s great that you are able to to sleep because it is it’s so important for everyone especially especially for you it is it is one of the most important things yeah my main thing’s headaches yeah you Should really get that looked up all the time not had to headaches all my life like ever since I was quite Young like just sometimes for for more than one day in a row so would you so you’ve had his

Interviewer young so what the day-to-day running of the business do you find that that elevated stress makes it worse that I don’t even know because like I can’t tell anymore it’s just a default way of being for me Like even when I was doing like you know Forest exam so just entrance of them I had a headache then I had to go home early yeah that age when I was doing those exams yeah so not So Much Anymore maybe Is stress I just I don’t know I don’t I don’t know whether I’m just permanently stressed or whether I’m not stressed at all are you drinking enough water he drinks enough water I drink quite a lot of water yeah yeah I say that apparently nine out of ten headaches are

Caused by dehydration that’s another issue I also get very hot though like so your friends but that causes dehydration but it’s annoying because like you know we were just talking about like restful sleep I can’t drink too much water All right for obvious reasons yeah we used to cut it off like an hour and a half before you go to bed yeah and then like but if I do that then I’ll I know that’ll get too hot so then I also need to cool the room a lot so which is difficult So because because obviously you’re married so I’m going to consider the other person a little bit I can’t call the room too yeah but yeah dude I’ve got to drop the dream temperature quite a lot

Um to actually it’s weird even in winter like I find winter too hot let alone some more I have like four flat like four fans in summer just to keep it up some temperature to sleep and then drop it in winter too so it’s Just too hot everywhere um so maybe it has something to do with that like a just slightly warmer than most people um maybe but it’s I get dehydrated just despite the fact that I drink quite a lot of water yeah similar for different reasons for Me yeah um yeah so stress health is quite big quite a big issue when you’re running the business especially when you’re starting like you said seven days a week when you when you started um what else have you found stress not

Stress wise but like downsides of running your own business that you can think of um well we’ve covered sleep that’s the main thing for me um so it took me as we were saying before and my my gallery used to be news Agents so it took 10 months to convert it into a gallery space yeah um So within that the reason it also took 10 months is because there were two spaces on the ground level and then uh one one space in the basement level as Well as a kitchenette and a bathroom and when the builders and the electricians were in um ripping off the floors and feeding the electrical feeding wires through um they thought well surely upstairs mirrors downstairs and we discovered a

Whole new room which was incredible um the council didn’t even know it existed until I called and told them thankfully my business rates didn’t go up so that was really that was a blessing um but we had this whole new room that Room was filled to the brim of concrete and clay and that itself took six months to remove everything square meter by square meter because they had to take off the floor that they had put upstairs so that everything could be removed Um bit by bit so within that that 10 months of setting up the space I would say that’s where I stopped sleeping so I think because there’s so much to do even though my business opened to the public on the 6th of December 2013 there was

It’s really been from January 2013 where I feel I started the the project of of Camden image gallery so that would be for me where I I stopped sleeping so really I haven’t really slept in a decade so so I would say that um that’s Not very healthy and I would say for me that’s that’s the biggest the biggest downside to to running running your own business and running a business that I think that you want to be part of it would be very easy for somebody in my in my position to to have everything that is already It’s a business that is already set up it runs in it in a clear functional way and I work with a variety of of wonderful artists and curators and every day is exciting it would be very easy for me to to take a step back for somebody else to to run everything but

Because I still I enjoy it I I love the Arts my background is photography but I’m interested in a variety of Arts of so so I want to be part of it still It’s your baby it is and also and also my clients like the fact that they work with me from day one all the way through to the end so so there are quite a lot of people that book a year a year and a half in advance and they know that if they they book their Exhibition well first of all they come to see the space and I’m there showing them the space discussing all of the options they’re there I’m there when they book I’m there throughout the whole moment leading up to the process leading up with all of the the promotion that

Goes with it um through to installing the exhibition hosting the um opening reception invigilating um the gallery whilst the galleries open to the public taking down with sales I am there so I do again as I said I do Have um some some fantastic assistance but the fact that Whoever has hired the gallery knows that I am there from the beginning and I and I care about them and I care about their work and I’m there throughout the end I Think that’s one of the main reasons why I have repeat customers and um people they they do recommend me to to others as well yeah definitely um having having some the same point of contact all the way through I found it

Where because obviously I’m back and forth between the two locations so if I assign somebody up um in seven Kings on Tuesday and I’m here on the Saturday when they’re coming in for their first session and they don’t see the person They spoke to and they see somebody else it does put them off like having having the same contact from beginning to end makes the client Journey so much nicer for them um so yeah I think that’s probably why um Now that we’ve set up everything up in the way that it is where you’re essentially permanently here and so it’s permanently there yeah it’s yeah you have a point of contact where you can constantly you see you they’re the face of the business you need to have you

Need to have that there’s also I I think you kind of get into obviously because if you’ve got two locations you don’t need to deal with this so much but um I’m kind of I’ve kind of got two modes some seven Kings mode and louder mode Yeah it’s a very different um client base yeah so so like I need to it’s not just the client bases it’s just like understanding seven Kings and understanding Latin so obviously just knowing that you’re in One place and you’re like okay well that’s my responsibility is better than shift you’re kind of In Between Worlds when you’re if you’re managing multiple locations um which is what we were doing for a

Good two three years I’m not going to do that made it very very challenging um and it made it difficult to understand each Center like whereas like here that’s an answer like the back of my hand I know all the students I know What’s going on I know the Priceless like yeah whereas like sometimes like when I’m booking a seven case like just occasionally now I I have to go okay where am I and what am I doing yeah whose classes

Systems

When is the class because they’re all different yeah same classes different times so different yeah just knowing stuff from the on the back of your hand well it takes away mental resources as well so yeah so we’re using so much brain space like trying to manage oh Yeah I mean I’m constantly thinking about 10 different projects at once yeah so but I still managed to memorize all the price lists and like where I am who I’m talking to I know when every class is I have got worse recently yeah mainly because I’ve handed off some of those responsibilities to you and to deserved I have started to forget like so you’re so young yeah what time the class is or like how much this thing is of like his diet to go but yeah um there was one more con which was like the financial risk of

Starting a business that’s quite a big one I think that’s the main risk it’s the main con you got you’ve got potentially if you start up a business and it fails and stuff like that you’ve got the You’ve got the good side of it which is that you tried it and you won’t I think like the worst thing is to think about what might have been and and regret it so at least like you Know you’ve you’ve gone okay well it didn’t work true and then you can reflect in there and you might learn from it there is a financial burden of starting one initially yeah the payoff will be quite small generally well you’d be making a loss for a year

Or two yeah which is completely normal especially well I think for a lot of businesses especially small businesses yeah that’s why that’s why the first the first couple years are the hardest um yeah you you need to invest a lot of Money in before before you start seeing any Financial rewards yeah and also it’s it’s again the first couple years are really difficult because you have to work every waking hour um to to set everything up and then once Everything has settled down and a lot more a lot more people know know about the business especially when you’re setting something up from scratch it doesn’t exist so nobody knows about it so you have to work really hard to make sure that

That people do know about it know about the brand and know that it know what the brand is representing and what what the service is so so yes that’s why that’s that all comes into why the first first couple of years are the are the most difficult Um but if if anything if any business can get past that and then it runs smoothly and is a successful business and it works well and whatever product or service that you’re selling um is successful then then that you know Things will be a lot a lot smoother it’s never easy running your business running your own business um there are constant challenges and it’s a lot of hard work that that we need to put in every single day but nothing is nothing is as difficult as

Those first two years yeah well twenty twenty percent of new businesses fail is this I’m surprised that’s not more 20 is quite high in terms of In terms of businesses though that’s that’s one-fifth yeah one hour five one fifth yeah for us like we oh we we knew that our service sort of worked um we rebranded ourselves in 2018 um to all this like colors um so we essentially had to we had to sort of do it again like people knew the original name and

We had a brand but it wasn’t like a strong brand identity like like we have now so you kind of we had to redo all that work yes yeah right the brand everything is the is the raw literally everything can brand put your Logo on it but then yeah like we’ve I think the major thing that we had to learn is we understood operations of business but I think the hardest well things that we we struggle the most with is marketing Advertising that kind of stuff and also I think like perhaps the biggest challenge for me whilst understanding is a business trying to balance that against customers concerns and needs in business it is

Competitive ultimately and it is Cutthroat to an extent but it also in our business especially because it’s a people business you need to show compassion And striking the balance between ensuring that the business runs and keeps running sustaining that makes profit Against caring about people okay well we’re not even that caring about somebody’s most precious yeah like having the compassion to deal with somebody’s like a parent and their child but also being like you kind of need to play as well you need to

Like we are still a business yes tracking that balance is it’s hot it’s difficult you’ve kind of got to see to see as the greater good that the business continues because and is able to operate Um unable to bring sort of effects more people’s lives positively and ultimately that can only be done if you I guess you’ve got something of the Catalyst about you you’ve got to you you’ve got to treat it seriously And you’ve got to make profit at the end of the day so that’s really really difficult to strike a balance between especially for me because I’m quite soft is it possum I’m quite a soft person really I’ve been trying to trade him up

A little bit um no just some there’s some things you just need to be firm with yeah just not you but like generally we’re dealing with like a specific thing like you can’t approach that softly and he’s About no this is what is going to happen or not gonna happen but then you’ve also like the thing is is that there’s there’s also moments when it’s like it might not be the best thing for the business but it’s an important thing for the business you’ve got to run it with some like like any business like this is This this isn’t is important to not come across as to too mean as it were yeah that that is hard yeah yeah very very challenging fan but fair yeah spoke about cons quite a lot well just to

Finish off well actually um if you were to start your own business what would you say um because we’ve been looking at franchising right um it’s on the back burner a little bit um and probably didn’t help but it’s still it’s still on the cards So what would you say between franchising and starting your own thing from scratch I have a couple of I can see the definite attraction of buying into franchise you got that recognizability that’s so Hard so hard like if you buy a McDonald’s franchise I know it’s extremely expensive you need a lot of Starbucks startup Capital buy something like that you see like you know that people will come to McDonald’s yeah as long as you locate

Franchising and independence

It well and that kind of thing locations are big um you don’t have to go through all of the trials and tribulations yes they’ve got processes yeah you don’t have to figure out the processes and the product and all this and like location all by yourself it’s sort of that’s one of our Big challenges too is like putting processes in place that um yeah and are scalable yeah but the fact the very fact that we have done that leg work and put in all the money to figure that out means it’s less of a Less of an initial risk for someone that is yes look into franchise yeah franchise like the business model works like it’s tried it’s tested everyone yeah it’s like they’ve shown as well that like franchises are more expensive more successful than like is in some

Some quiet franchise is more successful than starting their own business from scratch that’s no um I don’t know what though I was gonna say because if it’s 20 for um initial yeah I’m I think is actually quite high like like because I think That it’s it’s kind of one of those things that maybe going into you just want to sell a product that’s essentially what you want to do when you’re going to the business and and make and make money so sometimes people don’t think enough about that business model side and and those processes because those are actually the hardest Things to get right and that’s why I’m guessing businesses are such a high failure rate and recognizabilities on brand strength very important too like like that’s also not insignificant huge part of success is building your

Brand um and Elena has a brand um Ellen has got a brand and her brand like Camden in his Grand gallery and her brand sort of goes hand in hand I know That eventually we we will sell our business is that a worry for you in terms of like what is it because your brand is like so associated with you you’re both necessary in your necessary and Sufficient for that brand is that going to be is that something you think about right yeah it’s definitely something I’ve put a lot of thought into and that’s something that um might be on the cards for the future

Um at the moment I’m yeah I’m happy I’m happy with what I’m doing um and and it’s working really well and I think again like you said Camden image gallery is Elena Ernest that is they’re the same they’re the same person It’s the same it’s the same thing so yes the the actual the business and the brand is is ready there and it’s set up and I think if if I were to take a step back or if I were to sell the business it would be I would make sure that it Would be going to somebody who has a similar Outlook um to me it would have to go to somebody with a similar boss I think because like obviously it’s important I I think like we we’re quite big on

Quality we really really want to deliver quality tuition and products and products yeah um so the business needs to go to someone who cares I know I mean I I know that when that day comes I’m gonna Really really struggle to hand it over I put my life and so into building this thing and I yeah I know you would be I’m Really Gonna struggle when that day comes handing it all over like everything I’ve Worked for and and the weird thing about it is as well when you sell a business it needs to be at the time when your business is doing doing the best the exact point where you don’t want to sell it yes this is why you should sell it so that’s going to be tricky

Yeah I’ll try and sorry I’ll be like Now’s the Time yeah and I’m gonna be saying no no no no now is the time we should be building more yeah I can see it yeah I know I’m aware it’s Gonna happen and I know my response will be the same um all right just to finish off Pros we’ve said a lot about like some of the downsides of starting or running your own your own business what what are the main benefits Um I think just knowing proud of the achievement when when you do start something up from scratch really hard to to get where you want to be and that and that continues and you have big obstacles like a pandemic for

Example um and that’s one of the biggest obstacles that many businesses have shared yeah just having knowing that you’ve started something from scratch and being being proud of what you’ve achieved I think that’s something that I I wouldn’t have gained that the feeling of of achievement and confidence and yeah and confidence and and knowing that that I’m doing the right thing that that comes from from starting something myself and

Pride in a business

Working very hard every single day and being where I am nine years on um so I would say that’s the that’s the biggest the biggest Pro for me is knowing that that I have done it on my own and it has been very difficult but But I am continuing to do it on my own and it and it’s mine and I think the other big Pro is knowing that because I run the business on my own I yes I can bounce ideas off family and friends but in terms of the decision Making that is that’s me that’s my decision so if something goes well then then that’s brilliant it went well and if it doesn’t go well then I learn from that and what what could I do to improve moving forward but I would I would say that’s a big a

Big Pro um for me in my business I would I would say similar um I just I just like creating stuff it doesn’t matter what it is like you’re brilliant value okay that’s like my my It’s probably my favorite thing is just like the effects that your business can have on others like on a sort of higher level we can employ people so that brings sort of like gives people a living the fact that like Legacy is a Big part of it like that’s probably what I really like about teaching is like because I’m like well I’ve got all of this knowledge and get to pass it onto someone else is is a joy and a gift yeah so this is one of those things that you

That I enjoy about it and I think um you learn a lot I think learning a lot about first of all business just generally how it works and then learning sort of In little individual things here and there yeah but yeah all those little individual things add up to you as a person being completely different more confident yeah like there’s so many things I’ve learned doing this dealing with loads of different people like we Have to know a little about a lot of things rather than a lot about a little like we can do between us we can pretty much do anything I think what we’ve learned we can apply what we’ve learned in all of this yeah to any other business yeah

Would be effective Business Consultants because we would know exactly like we need to do this this and this um for me one of the biggest things is you do have to work a lot and you do have your mind never switches off but the freedom of Not having to firstly not having to build somebody else’s dream and secondly not having to not having to answer to anybody else yeah I would say that too yeah two Pros I rather build my own Thing than help to build someone else’s is that selfish I don’t know well there has to be something it’s just another drive it’s self-interested isn’t it like yeah you’ve got to ask it it lives and dies with you like if you don’t well hopefully not no but day to day

Like where we are now it does like if we don’t show up for three weeks what would happen I’ve got to tell you about the holidays yeah I already I already know disappearing for what four four weeks Yeah I’ll be able to do it so I think responsibility is a bit weird because our responsibility is like a massive con but it’s also a massive Pro so it’s a lot a lot of things are like uh if you’ve got a sort of We we because I feel like business owners want uh they kind of want to torture themselves in a way like so they they know like how difficult it is there’s so many challenges but they’re also addicted to that challenge yeah and that’s quite I think that’s

Kind of more naturally in bill yeah in the way that my mind works is I I need to figure out stuff yeah and I just I need to figure stuff out yeah I like having all the different challenges and I like I love it when I can solve one yeah just like a bunch of Puzzles that need to be fixed so and sometimes people end up um moving jobs when if they’re working for a big Corporation they sometimes move jobs because they’re not being challenged enough yeah and in a business Especially running a small business um there are so many challenges um constantly so no one can ever be bored um running your own business because there is there is constantly something new and exciting to to figure out

Mentally stimulating us yeah yeah so you grow to actually from running business you go to respect other businesses as well so like even even though in like most businesses Maybe simple in a way although some businesses May be perceived as simple it seems nothing is important nothing is simple but even though a nail business or something like that it’s not it’s not it’s a immensely difficult to get correct well the only way to make something simple to the end user is for a whole load of complicated

The work behind the scenes

Stuff to be going on behind the scenes that they can’t see like the swan like paddling yes what you see is that what we’re doing yeah well with with my business for example some people see a two three week Exhibition on oh that’s wonderful you’ve you’ve you’ve only been here for two three weeks for this particular show where I’ve been working on that particular show for a year and a half and I I am constantly working on about six or seven exhibitions constantly on The go at all times um so that’s sometimes what what some people some people see um whereas when when you do run your own business you know that there’s there’s so much happening unbelievable behind the scenes that there constantly needs

To to be done yeah um we have um our biggest thing is people saying no but you just you know you just come in for five o’clock and teach her a couple of hours and then go home like what do you actually have to do that’s that’s it isn’t it I’m like I’m gonna just bite my tongue on this one but it’s hard to explain I think it’s hard to to sum up for both of our businesses you can’t sum up in one in one sentence how much there is to do in preparation for those couple of hours there’s There’s a huge amount that constantly needs we’d love to get it to that stage remember it’s just like but but there’s so much leg work and preparation that goes into making a experience seamless and well it’s all the stuff you don’t think about it’s not even just the class

Or just the exhibition it’s like well yeah yeah it’s allow your website you’ve got social media and all that sort of stuff you’ve got loads of emails loads of phone calls like oh that that chair is the like screws loose in that chair we’re gonna fix that All that hinge is falling off we’re gonna fix that oh there’s leaves outside where to sweep that off there’s a mark on the window like there’s there’s just a constant amount of things that people just people don’t see and they don’t realize that yeah adds to your experience being of course you know I Think having a physical space um is something that as what you’ve just described is something that a lot of people don’t see don’t think about it yeah or some people have their own businesses but they might be online businesses and when you have an online

Business you concentrate on the website and that’s it the website doesn’t collect dust or need lights replacing or need cleaning or need to you know there are so many things that yeah actually like well I’m like one of the Things that we need to do is go through our website and then probably um sort of clean it as it were so you you so so it’s not there’s there’s that too but that with an online business they would have that as well but what we also have is is repainting so for me for example I’m I’m constantly um polyfilling and repainting after so every single exhibition I will always touch up walls I will repaints I will reorganize the storage room where everything has is it’s all it’s all in a very neat position but some some people

Might come in and think well actually I don’t want that plant I don’t want that table they they then move things around so every single exhibition I have all of that to do and then every um eight to ten months I bring builders in to repaint the whole Gallery including the ceilings so that’s Something that needs to be it needs to be empty for that to happen for that to dry by any of this business is sorry dependent on good-looking your phone it needs to it needs to that’s what the main yeah does any of anything that’s our main sort of priority and it’s white It’s it’s a I have I have six white public rooms um so even somebody walking in and perhaps accidentally um knocking their bag on the wall would leave a mark I have events every every

Two weeks on average um for some exhibitions we have we have three or four events so for an evening reception where there is wine being served if somebody accidentally spills red wine on my white walls that takes three coats of paint which takes time to To dry it’s all of these the the running of um I think oh yeah the running of a of a white um pristine clean Gallery it takes up so much of my time so I’m trying to do all of that whilst answering all of the inquiries or if I have an exhibition on Just making sure that everything else runs smoothly and um and working with the public when they come in as well and making sure that they have a an enjoyable time and they learn what they what they’ve come in to learn and to see from that exhibition yeah I think our um

Our space is completely White but filled with children so yeah Challenge and we’ve got white boards so if you if you go in that room afterwards you might maybe you’ve seen it already you probably have there’s pen Marks all around and then when people are like using the boards they’ll lean on the wall and they’ll be like that and there are literal footprints on our wall yep I don’t know how that’s possible there are footprints on my walls too from evening receptions for people to stand right stand and uh and sometimes Put their leg up without realizing that they’re having a nice time they have a drink in their hand they’re speaking to the artist um they’re learning about the work and they’re feeling comfortable and they’re happy and that’s that’s fantastic I want people to feel comfortable and happy in my space um but then as a result I’m then

Cleaning the next morning before I open to the public is difficult yeah uh anything you want to add before we wrap it all up uh I would just say that if anyone is thinking of of setting up a business and that’s and they have a good Idea and mind I think the main thing is just make sure that they’ve researched enough they’ve known they know what what they’re getting into as well what they’re getting into but um just to to make sure that whatever business they want to to set up whether that be online Or whether that be a business like yourselves on High Street just to make sure that there is a market for it and to make sure that there is a safety net um a financial safety net beforehand whether that be a loan from the bank or whether that be money that they’ve saved up um leading up to that starting point

Um and that if they if they want to do it then then they should um I think that anything is possible with a lot of a lot of hard work might end up being the best thing they ever did yeah yeah um and we’re all we’re all very happy as well so we’re we’re proud of everything That we’ve achieved and yeah and I’m very happy with with what I’ve what I’ve created yeah there’s not much I would change for it of course um we’ll leave some links and things for Camden image gallery website Instagram All that stuff um thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule to travel all the way out here to yeah join us thank you for having me it’s lovely it’s great to see the space as well yeah yeah okay okay

See you next time thank you foreign [Music]