0:00 Intro
1:12 Examples happening right now (Forest, Snaresbrook, Charterhouse, Radley)
3:14 How the admissions journey changes after an acquisition
5:02 Vertical integration and reducing friction
6:00 Why this is happening now (VAT and survivability)
7:00 Predictability, premium pricing, and “parents being vetted”
10:00 What these changes mean for families applying externally at 11+
13:27 Why this might push more parents towards 4+ and 7+
15:25 The bigger picture: money, access, and inequality
18:05 Confidence, resources, and why private school “feels different”
23:23 Fewer open competition places and what schools might do next
28:15 Does this increase pressure to enter earlier than 11+?
31:53 Warning signs: feeder school does not guarantee progression
39:09 Practical options for parents now
43:26 The best advice: foundations, stimulation, and experiences
47:33 Let kids be kids (and why forced study can backfire)
53:01 The efficient learning angle (zone of proximal development)
55:41 Persistence: why chores teach better than worksheets
57:10 Wrap up

Intro

If your intent is to get your child into a top private school, it makes sense to

send your child to a feeder school because you might save money in the short term.

Parents will be thinking, well, if there’s less available places at 11 plus due to the feeder schools taking up these places, maybe going for four plus,

7 plus like to get into that pipeline. Oh yeah.

Do you think that’s do you think that’s a thing? And we know that like in business like predictability is important. So if you can secure

parents that are capable of paying, it’s not just the child getting interviewed. No, it’s the parents being vetted.

Scarcity creates value and all that. So there’ll be less available external seats because they’re going to feed straight through.

It’s not that they’re just increasing their numbers. It’s that they’re basically controlling the pipeline of future students. Yeah,

I mean it looks like it’s an expansion,

but it’s more about control.

The Education Lounge podcast.

Examples happening right now (Forest, Snaresbrook, Charterhouse, Radley)

So, there’s something quite big happening in the uh independent school world. And I guess the people that got

to the end of the last episode will know what that is, but I don’t think many people will fully understand

the sort of ramifications of it down the line. So, I’m going to read out a few things to you. So, Forest School in

North East London where we are has acquired Snesbook Prep in Woodford Green. Uh, there are rumors

of Bankcraft acquiring St. Orbins, but there are no formal articles released yet. So, maybe we’re maybe the two of us

and everyone else is not really supposed to know about that right now, but there’s rumors of that that I’ve heard. Yeah,

we have Alen School. Aliens.

Ela. Elaine’s Ela’s school in South London.

Uh that’s bought Oakford Prep into the like Dalich Mhm.

school groups. Habedashes uh in half a year bought Lucken House and also St.

Martin School. And then you’ve got charter house in Surrey that’s bought Aimsbury School. Radley College in Oxford has merged with the prep schools

trust bringing together Radley and seven prep schools including Cotill Chandlings and Kitebrook. I mean these are not near

me so I don’t know this names but basically I’ve heard of some of these independent schools but I’ve not heard yeah these are all independent schools.

Um and the prep school scores are the the in this case are the feeder scores that

um feed into the secondary schools. Um so I mean it looks like it’s an

expansion but it’s more about control and uh longevity of the secondary schools.

Yeah. And profit I guess. Yeah.

How the admissions journey changes after an acquisition

So what’s actually happening here? We’ve got So what? Let’s go through the process. What was the process before? Let’s take the one that’s local to us.

Let’s take the Snesbrook forest example before the acquisition in 2015 2025, sorry, September.

What was the process of the feeder school?

Well, I suppose first of all, these schools, they

specialize in getting their kids into private schools and you know grammar schools as well.

Yeah.

Like that like that’s the sort of purpose. A lot of parents will put their children in uh you know Yeah. seven six

really and from there it’s easier to transition from there to forest a lot of

the times these schools will have a at least informal relationship they know each other quite well

do you think people would have chosen the specific prep schools with the knowledge that if you’re here you can get into there more easily

yeah exactly it’s it’s not like predetermined as some but it’s there’s an existing relationship.

Yeah. That existing relationship allows a school to go okay well at an interview or something like that. Mhm.

You might have a bit of an advantage because there’s a pre-existing relationship there forest and other schools like the senior schools would be aware of the culture at the prep school

and that sort of thing. Yeah, culture is a big thing we’re going to come on to in a very and they can sort thus integrate students easily because integration is very important like with anything.

Vertical integration and reducing friction

Yeah. Well, they are businesses and we talk about vertical integration in in business, right? Yeah.

Um so before they would be you go to prep school then you would apply to this secondary school and you’d compete in the 11 plus or their independent school

exams in order to get in. But with these mergers and things, uh, when they

vertically integrate the prep school into their existing business,

it it then becomes you go to the prep school and you feed directly into that secondary school, which reduces Yeah. reduces friction.

Yeah.

Right. So, it’s not that they’re just increasing their numbers, is that they’re basically controlling the

pipeline of future students. Yeah. In a nutshell. Yes. Yeah.

So, what do you think? I mean, there’s some very obvious answers to this that we’ve discussed at length, but what do

you think is the reason that this is happening now and didn’t happen, you know, 5 10 years ago?

Why this is happening now (VAT and survivability)

Well, I think we said that small private schools would struggle more in a VAT environment. I mean, it’s

the thing, isn’t it? and that and it makes a lot of sense that these schools they they’re not these are good schools.

They’re not necessarily bad or suffering or anything. They’ve got a good reputation,

but any sort of opportunity to for these schools to survive or increase their survivability,

they’re going to take that.

So, do you think it’s a win-win as in Yeah. with the VAT, do you think Snbrook would have struggled?

Yeah. Yeah. Or do you think Forest would have struggled or like the I mean these are just the examples that we’re using,

but Well, I I think all of these schools would certainly

Predictability, premium pricing, and “parents being vetted”

feel marketing pressure and I think as we know if you’ve got two

businesses and they combine their revenue in a sense combine their revenues and their marketing together,

then you have a and you have a strong relationship there then it actually boosts like for

instance with snares prep if you know that forest is attached to that you’ll pay more

right to secure place so from pre snares prep’s perspective it makes a lot of

sense because you get access to a more premium market um from the forest perspective

you also have maybe a greater pool of candidates or a better pool of candidates in in terms of better. I mean,

you mean like academically or? No, not not necessarily. Financially, what what better in what way?

Financially, that’s the first thing because if someone’s been on a prep school at prep school for so long.

Mhm. Um there there’s predictability of payment and we know that like in business like

predictability is important. So if you can secure parents that are that have shown in the past that they

are capable of paying remember we I think we’ve talked about like in the interview process it’s not just the child getting interviewed.

No it’s the parents being vetted in a sense. So you’ve got a bit of an You you can kill two birds with one

stone. You know children are prepared for pre-prepared for that environment.

And you also know that parents will pay that premium and can pay that premium.

Yeah. And that the child and the student uh the student and the family are culturally aligned to Yeah. There’s probably also sharing of

data, isn’t there? So like you understand the child better because you know

I know that there is you can reclaim I’m not 100% sure cuz I don’t I don’t

work in in a school but I think there there is some academic record that you can see moving forward and you if you

know more about the child then you can ultimately get better results. Yeah.

Yeah. So there’s just a lot of it’s a lot of factors. Yeah. I mean the factors that I’ve got obviously the financial pressure of

just the world at the moment but independent schools obviously they got the VAT pressure they have the cost increase as does everybody.

Mhm.

Every business every household has cost increases but also there’s falling birth rates as well to factor in.

So few different uh few different variables there. The second thing is yeah securing the future intake.

What these changes mean for families applying externally at 11

So obviously they want to they want stability and growth for the next 5 years 10 years and having that pipeline

will will help with that and it yeah reduces the reliance of external applicants. So if you think about what

we mentioned earlier about how a lot of people will choose a school like Snesbrook in order to have an easier

transition into forest but you do have people competing from all over for that for that space.

Yeah. You you need more people to pass the test. Yeah. You need people on the reserve list essentially because you’re going to have children who get into multiple schools.

Yeah. Which Sorry. Um which would require more marketing. Yeah.

More budget and more outreach. And so yeah, I think it’s pretty effective.

Pretty effective. I don’t know. like we’re yet to see how that shapes the market, but I think

yeah, it will create less pressure on those parents who are applying from SNESB prep and that sort of thing.

So, well, we have mentioned that the these schools regardless of VAT still have quite high demand.

Yeah. And there is still competition.

Um so, it’s not like the schools are going to have like loads of empty seats. No,

they’re still going to be I mean like the top the top wealthiest people that will still pay that extra 20% VAT or you know maybe reclaim it on whatever

they do but um and they still only the be the big fish as well that do this. So it’s like

yeah so it’s more again it’s another close shop close yeah transfer of wealth thing isn’t it only the top of the top can

can now get into them. So yeah, the issue isn’t isn’t that it’s just some stuff I wrote earlier. So the issue isn’t that demand

can be less predictable because um than it used to be uh costs are higher and schools would

rather secure future pupils early and rather than requiring you know relying on the external

admissions every single year. So it’s not that there aren’t externals and that that they’ve gone down or that that they’re going to have empty seats. It’s just

um it’s a it makes sense in a business sort of way, doesn’t it? From both from both sides.

Improves the predictability of your model. Yeah.

It’s probably gives you potential to charge more going forward. Well, SNES can definitely charge more.

Yeah. But I think even Forest can maybe charge more because there’ll be few scarcity creates value and all that. So there’ll be less available external

seats because now people are going to feed straight through and that in turn makes those available spaces more valuable.

Yeah. I think I’ve said before that like the harder it is to get into something the more value there is in it with with private school strictly.

Yeah. Yeah.

I remember that from a different episode somewhere. Like getting into Een is much much better than like it’s probably

10 times better than getting into Forest or Bankross in terms of your network.

So that’s that’s what it means for the schools. We’ve touched on a little bit about what it means for the parents. So let’s let’s move on to that. What do you think this means for the parents? Again,

I have some notes I made earlier, but maybe I can get your thoughts first.

Why this might push more parents towards 4+ and 7

Well, I suppose it means at 7 plus level, if your intent is to get your child into a

top private school, then it makes sense to send your child to a feeder school because you might save money in the short term.

You might pay a little bit less. Like, I imagine the premiums still won’t be quite as high.

Why would you Hang on. Why would you pay less?

You’d pay less um Yeah. Then getting them in at 7 plus at Forest for instance.

But then I think you’ll pay more of a premium on you’ll pay a sort of happy medium between both prices I think.

But then if we said that the uh prices of the Fed score would go up now that they’re integrated.

Yeah. But it won’t go as it won’t go up as it won’t won’t go to the level. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Okay. like as in they can save money on the forest side by getting their child in earlier, but it does mean that

they’ll shell out earlier. It might push more parents into

the free route if there is more and more selective pressure pushing prices up.

I think that’s Yeah.

Yeah. might push people more to like I’m noticing a lot of parents applying out to Essex

and and it feels really far but I live there. I live in Chumsford for instance. I see people even going far.

Yeah. A lot of people are like some parents look to move out to say

Chsford or Colchester even um in order to get a a place at a selective school um rather than put

their children through through through uh prep school.

The bigger picture: money, access, and inequality

So do you think this is another case of like the you know rich getting richer and all that transfer of wealth that sort of thing? Yeah, I think the whole

world is going that way as in fe the you have inferior and inferior stakeholding stakeholders owning more and more of the

pie. That is I mean it’s the it’s monopoly.

Like the world is just monopoly and there are there’s not just one winner but there’s

not many winners. I’d say there’s like it’s the 1% isn’t it? or the even less like 0.5%.

That wins.

Yeah. Like I don’t think that we would be able to attend a private school in today in today’s world.

Yeah. No. No. Definitely not. Definitely not. Yeah.

I or even pay for it. If we were if we had to pay for it for potentially like a child that we had, whatever, we would I

don’t think we I wouldn’t be able to afford it. Definitely not. No.

I’m not I I can I think it’d be a waste of money for me and like like in my opinion like remember I’m always

thinking about the investment return but but yeah we mentioned this before I I agree like now

yeah compound that for for like 10 18 years whatever it is you’d you’re better off giving them a

house I think with the the thing is is I I think as well we

we’re sort of a little bit privileged in the sense that aside from the fact that we went to a private school and we

sort of understand how that world operates and works I think in terms of

your child ultimately boils down to good parenting whatever that is and that that involves a lot of lot of different

facets, but we have a unique insight into education.

Um, and so much about why people send their children to these

schools is the confidence side because a lot of people point out that these

children who do go to prep schools or independent schools,

they’re just different because the confidence is just greater.

a lot of the time. But if you’re able to raise your child in a way that encourages them to

Confidence, resources, and why private school “feels different”

first of all not give up on something, I think that was like a really that’s something that I noticed a lot. I never knew I was I think I said in the Forest

P, the Forest School podcast where we had Mebs.

Um the first Yeah, first episode.

Was it the first? It was like It was the No, it was it was the first proper episode.

Oh, yeah. The first episode was me and you me and you talking in lockdown and we’re like this should really be a podcast. I remember just

um but the Yeah, the first proper one.

And I said I never knew that I was good at anything until I went to Forest.

But I think it was it was not that I was not good at stuff. It’s just that there were simply not the opportunities to

Did you think it well like a self-belief type of thing or partially but it’s also just resources wise like at primary school we didn’t

have a lot of stuff um and I get that and you and also I think they’re very

good at those schools and encouraging you. I find that I found

out as say primary school I was kind of all in my shell like I couldn’t I didn’t couldn’t express anything and then there

was no that in a class so we had like 40 40 kids in the class and stuff like that

it wasn’t it wasn’t that so like we you kind of just got forget a little bit for primary yeah um

I think we had like 20 yeah and it it actually you for a child that isn’t very confident or you know

particularly in extroverted or whatever I I I struggle to want to do anything like even though

when I did stuff I was good at it I never felt like I had that many opportunities to express it and with

forest that completely changed because I could even then I feel like I didn’t take advantage of some of my

opportunities It’s like things like chess as well.

We didn’t have a chess club in primary school or even sports as well. We had an after school football

club, but it was nowhere near like we didn’t we did not have like football pictures like that was a new thing. Um or the

chance to uh do athletics or anything like that.

We just go to the field and run around but it wasn’t really like formal athletics. like you have in forest. So,

it is a resources thing, you know, and also I think being in that environment,

you’re like dressed really nice, you’re looking the part. Um, teachers talk to

you like you’re actually you’ve got a brain.

It’s it’s it’s different because they they they’ve selected because they’ve already selected everyone. They speak to you on on the

level that you’re you expect. So I didn’t like at school like being treated like a child too much.

Like I found it quite condescending and I didn’t have that at Forest. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of kids feel like that.

So but then you also said that you wouldn’t like even if you could afford it, you wouldn’t send your kid there now.

Because if you know because I know what’s miss what would be missing I’d know how fill the gap I know how to fill the gap

but I think a lot of parents are like it’s kind of an easy option in a sense it’s one of the advantages of wealth

isn’t it like you can go okay the mainly money can solve this problem in some way but what are the actual problems if you

think about those those things yeah yeah if I were to like think okay what are the things that take my experience there

um something that I I enjoyed a lot and that that kind of thing and what did I get out of it? Those were the things

that really stood out for me. It’s like different expectations and what what were the things that what were the things that helped you to grow there that didn’t occur there?

Yeah. and and you just go, “Okay, well that can be replaced with this.” And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t cost money for the parent. It it will.

No, but it costs a lot less. Like for example, coming to somewhere like here for Yeah.

some math classes or whatever is is a tiny fraction of what you would spend on Yeah.

a private school and and those kids actually have come here anyway.

Yeah. You get you get that sort of relationship, don’t you? Um, and I I never really had that with a lot of I mean I had some amazing they were amazing teachers, don’t get me wrong.

Like some some of the primary school all of them were actually maybe probably a lot better than better. Yes.

But it’s just they how much time do they have for you? like they can’t like

they’ve got a lot of but I felt the real love and care but

at Forest it was just so much easier it was easier for them to get around to you.

Fewer open competition places and what schools might do next

So in terms of the um topic of today in terms of the fetus calls been bought up what does that mean for parents today?

I’m gonna run through what I’ve got and you can maybe comment on I think we’ve probably touched on a lot of these but what I have is that there are fewer open

competition places which we mentioned that means that external 11 plus uh people will face a reduced availability

of places um and the thresholds will be higher. Yeah. No, I’d agree with all of them. Yeah.

Um I don’t know about the thresholds being higher. I’m not sure.

Well, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t any places available uh in terms of Oh, yeah. Just the the pass them the pass mark Mike.

Well, no. Is that like a a bigger a bigger proportion of places will already

be accounted for? But they might what they might do is they might

increase the number of places potentially like they might just generally they might make a make their schools bigger.

That’s a they’re going to add the 20%

VAT plus a fee riser and then make more spaces meaning that’s maybe that’s the only way they

can survive. I don’t think it’s just about survivability though. You could I don’t see the the thing is is that

obviously you’ve got a lot of competing.

This is just corporate. There’s different directions that schools could go into. It could be an opportunity for them to grow more,

grow the number of places more,

right? Um, so that and and they could keep prices relatively the same, but add more seats, add a few more staff to cope

with that amount. They can add buildings. We know that they can go,

“Okay, we’re going to build here and add add a few other things.” Like every time we go back to Forest, we’re like, “That wasn’t there before.” Um,

yeah. And all the new buildings started when we left.

Yeah. And they can write that off, can’t they? against. Yeah, it’s a business, isn’t it?

So, do you think it’s a business, but it’s also charity? It’s It’s weird. It’s very strange.

I don’t like as in it doesn’t work quite the same way as a business. It’s trust you like if you’re the warden or

whatever forest or the person in charge, you’re like a trustee of the charity and obviously you take a a salary.

I thought charities didn’t pay tax. Well, they they’re paying that now.

They’re paying turnover tax, but they’re not paying It’s not a registered charity, is it? I think they are. They got charity.

How are they paying tax? They’re not paying corporation tax, but they still have to pay VAT.

Yes. Because that’s the only way to get them, which is why it’s been born there. Yeah.

So, it’s been put on the parents more than the school. But it doesn’t mean that they don’t have like running costs if they don’t like is if they don’t

secure like a charity can very easily die. It’s not like it doesn’t ensure survival but it does mean that they can

avoid certain that are quite punitive like uh the big one is business rights.

But if if they a lot of these schools will have a relatively like they’ll have in

their mind that this could change. So they’ll be like okay we need to

desperately secure our future and ensure that we can raise prices a great deal in order to survive all their number of places. And obviously like if you what’s

the best way to deal with attacks like business rates which is consistent to increase the number of spaces. So I

think you could see well yeah if you can’t reduce your bottom line you’re going to increase the top line. So there’s a number of things that could happen and they could involve

it actually becoming in a sense less competitive because there could be more spaces available.

No, I think they’d fat though and they they’d want to be they’d want to balance it out more exclusive. Yeah. Um to get back to the parents because that’s what this

section is meant to be. No, but like it’s interesting. It’s useful.

No, but it does it plays into like how the landscape will develop for parents because it could mean that there’s there’s very little there’s either going

to be a lot of pressure to get you in or less.

Does this increase pressure to enter earlier than 11+?

This is why I was going to ask because to have less pressure on the 11 plus, do you think this will force or you know

make parents double think maybe going for 4 plus 7 plus like to get into that pipeline? Oh yeah.

Do you think that’s do you think that’s a thing?

Yeah, I think I think at the in terms of the seven plus is it’s massively is it Forest have stopped doing seven?

They don’t do it. No, they do seven, but they don’t do they’ve stopped doing four. Four. No, actually, no. Wait, man. Seven. They’ve stopped doing seven. Four.

Makes a lot of sense. But then I I just think it’s ridiculously early. So, but it’s But parents parents will be thinking

about this, right? Parents will parents will be thinking well if there’s less available places at 11 plus due to the

feeder schools taken up these places there isn’t a school feeding in at 4 plus 7 plus whatever then maybe we

should go for that like I was I had we had a seven plus student last year that was

pretty much doing seven plus to not have to do 11 plus. Most of them are like that, aren’t they?

A lot of parents are there are certain parents who they’re they’re obsessed with the academic side. So they’re like, “Okay,

like let’s get our child in at 7 plus, 4 plus or whatever so that they

can improve a huge amount academically and then eventually go for 11 plus. So they’re thinking spend money now to save money later. That sort of Yeah.

attitude. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Whilst building a bit of a network,

whilst instilling in their child their values that they understand that school to possess and that kind of thing.

Yeah.

And I I do I do generally there’s that Jimmy Carr thing, isn’t it? Uh how but

this is in relation to toddlers is like what uh pain now more pain now

the say the saying is yeah easy life now hard life later hard life now easy life later. Yeah. Yeah.

So it’s that uh you seen the image I might I’ll see if I can get I’ll send it to Andrew. We use it in one of our other videos. We’ll put it up here somewhere.

It’s the the guy I drew it out. It’s a guy climbing a difficult route now to make it easier later on. Mhm.

Or there’s another guy there’s two different paths doing a a really easy route now and then it’s like a cliff he’s got to climb.

Yeah. Um I we’ll put it up here. But that’s that’s the the visual representation of that saying

to be honest if I were a parent I’d be thinking that way. Yeah. I’ I’d be like you get them I

you instill the values and stuff early the hard work and all that sort of stuff early on build the foundations build the foundations like that’s the most important thing build great foundations

across the board in your child early on and they will have the resilience strength and uh skills to do better

especially at a young age when the brain’s more mal malleable that malleable yeah the the plasticity is is um yeah,

you got a greater chance of mold in that.

I think if Forest could get people in at one one, but yeah,

get get them early, you know.

Warning signs: feeder school does not guarantee progression

So, what warning sign should parents watch out for? I’d say that the need to the need to still perform academically

doesn’t go away just because you’re in the feeder school beforehand. Like you could be in the feeder school,

not do very well academically. They could still not take take you on. It doesn’t it doesn’t guarantee you a place essentially.

Does he not? If it’s if so if you’re say you’re in the theater school and you’re not really performing academically,

you’re not doing very well. Yeah.

Do you not think that would that’s that you’re not guaranteed to go straight through, are you?

It’d be very harsh to get rid of essentially a child like well a very young child. But I’ve seen I’ve seen it

happen at senior school, but I think at like primary school, it’s less of a I’m saying going from the year school from primary into the secondary school.

It might be part of the same group of schools,

but it doesn’t guarantee you to get into you still have to do well at school. I suppose it depends on the model that

this like it depends how they’re being acquired cuz if it’s just if it’s if it’s that they’re just being

acquired as an extra form of profit for the school or whatever or it’s just

they’re working together then it might make it easier to get in but it won’t make it guaranteed. But in some cases it

might be okay if you’ve got a place here then it gives you a

if it’s above 90% probability of getting in then it’s pretty high.

Okay. Let’s say you’re not performing very well in the uh in while you’re in the primary school being moved up into a

academic secondary school where that place could be given to someone that outperforms you externally cuz the competition is still there.

Right.

I don’t think it guarantees you to move straight through.

I’m not sure at this present time. Like I don’t know.

Okay. I I assumed it would wouldn’t guarantee you a place, but I don’t know cuz I mean it’d be a bit harsh to write off a child at that age.

From what I’ve got here, I don’t think it does. Then would they have to pass a test?

For when I was going from primary into secondary and forest, I did have to take a test.

Yeah. But but that I was basically going through.

But I’m sure that if I got like 10% or something that my place could be given to someone that externally that I don’t think it would.

Well, I’ve from Is that true?

Well, I’ve got here the internal progression doesn’t guarantee an automatic place. I need to go and double check where I um which link I got that

from. But yeah, I don’t think it guarantees. Yeah,

you’d still have to do well at school.

You basically just Yeah, I think you’d have to I think you still have to do do well academically to to progress.

Yeah, but I’d be I like if a child was pre-selected at say four plus or seven plus and they weren’t performing

academically like I’ I’d question whether that was for academic reasons. I think it as in you think it’s more monetary.

No, I think there’d be something seriously wrong potentially like as in they’re they’re struggling for because

some need isn’t being met in some way because if they’ve been pre-selected already, they’ve clearly got ability,

but there’s some reason adjacent to that why they’re not performing. So, it could be

it could be related to home life or it could be related to like a learning need not being addressed like

maybe they’re on the spectrum or something like that and it’s not being catered for properly. I mean, I really

don’t think you should write a child off if they got like at that age. If they were at that school and there was a clear route through,

then I think it’d be very harsh to get rid of them. I don’t think I think the only justification could be like, okay,

this child is like bullying other children and you know that kind of thing. It’s causing so much

distress to other children that they can’t cope with it. So, um,

Kings Elely, uh, Habadashes, they they have, uh,

yeah, they’ve got documents and pages that say it doesn’t guarantee success.

It doesn’t guarantee you can move straight through. What?

Habadashes refers to it as a preferential pathway. What?

Which basically says it’s not guaranteed. I don’t I think it’ be very basically nepotism.

But what what’s the no what what would deselect a child then?

Um well I need to read through the full thing but which one won’t do now but yeah I mean

there are a couple of links on a couple of these school pages that say it doesn’t necessarily mean you move straight through.

Yeah. But yeah, I think you’ll be I think it’d be difficult to get not moved through. But my my point was in this

short section, my point was just you still have to do well essentially. Yeah.

You can’t just go in at 7 plus and I’m not doing any work now. Like that’s not how it not how it works. Well, that was my point.

Yeah, but I’m I’m questioning like I don’t know. Is that like what is the actual

what are the selective pressures that would stop someone getting getting through you know like what would

deselect them? I think like them just performing not very well academically is not a good reason.

Well, I don’t know what their internal things are. This is a very new thing that’s happening as well. We don’t know yet. This is the uh first academic year.

Yeah.

Where well for example locally to us again it’s the first academic year where Snook is under the forest umbrella. So

we don’t know what so I guess like it’d be interesting to see see what how this shapes out. So I

think we should finish it off how we usually do by giving some advice to parents that are parents that have children of this age and are thinking of

going down one of these routes. We’ve spoken a bit about the the changes and the positive things that come out of it and some of the negative things that come out of it, but um what do you think parents should actually do?

Practical options for parents now

Well, there’s like three there’s a few different options, isn’t there? Cuz it depends on what the parents

value. So, if they want their child to eventually go to one of these private schools that happens to have that feeder school, um,

I guess it makes sense to get them in early. You can either do that through

the prep school route. A lot of these big schools have prep schools and

that will be the probably the easiest way to get your child in. So you could if you’re going to forest then they’ve

got a four plus. If you’ve got like bankro chick well those sorts of schools then they’ve got seven plus and I think

six plus. There’s a few different options there.

I think you save some money potentially by going for some of these feeder schools

because of the fact that they’re not going to I imagine charge as much as the

well surely surely you save more money by not going to a private primary school and trying to enter 11 plus.

Yeah. I’m just saying like cuz not every not every single child’s going to need to to do four plus. That’s No,

I think that’s a ridiculous time to take exams anyway personally.

But yeah, it’s very light compared to what they do at 7 plus or 4 plus.

Yeah, I don’t think it’s the route for every child.

It’s not. But no, no, no. as in I I’d say there’s no predefined route for any child, but it’s an option. And if you

want your child to I said that if you want that firm guarantee,

that’s how you guarantee it. If you want slightly more guarantee, but maybe a bit less certainty, then you go to one of

these feeder schools and you get a lower price, so there’s less of a price premium and that can be quite attractive to a lot of parents.

Think how attractive that makes that the proposition of sending your child to. If you wanted your child to go on to forest

or whatever and you can get your child into a feeder school, that gives them a high probability of getting into net school. That’s pretty attractive.

Yeah, but it costs if if they’re if parents are okay to it’s going to cost anyway pay for that. Like it’s going to cost. Do you think this is part of the plan?

because it just occurred to me if you’re reducing the number of open spaces available 11 plus you’ve bought the feeder school

you’re you’re you end up making more money.

Oh yeah. No, no, as in it is but it’s also the result of circumstance.

No, but it’s a it’s a designed circumstance.

Yeah, but it’s they’ve designed a circumstance on purpose.

Who’s designed it? forest or whoever this the person of the school buying the feeder school. You’re reducing the

number of uh spaces available to come in at 11 plus. You’ve bought the feeder school which is then going to be

money and then you’re going to get money from that and you’ve basically earned four more years worth of income going back from 11

down to seven as opposed to just getting money from 11 to 18 to 16. I mean,

they’ve just created their own marketplace and and uh Yeah, of course. I think it’s just one school had a good marketing idea and it’s just been copied.

Yeah. Well, it was like a a business strategy and then other schools going,

“Oh, actually that’s a really good idea.” And then you see there spotted opportunity. Yeah. Crazy.

Your return on your investment will be returned quite quickly and then you’re just I mean that’s what savvy businesses do is they take advantage of the market.

Yeah,

in any way that they can and it’s the market has changed for small prep schools

because of that. So yeah, and other pressures so makes sense.

Yeah,

The best advice: foundations, stimulation, and experiences

back to the back to the parents again just to give them some advice. I would still say and I’m pretty sure you’re probably going to agree.

I would still say that you focus on your child getting the foundations early. literacy,

ma math literacy, and the found just the foundations, four operations, multiplications. Yeah.

Getting all that grounded early on, I still think is the best thing.

I think exposing your child to loads of experiences, I think that’s the that’s the thing is experiences and people, I

think that’s academically.

You don’t need to like I I sort of think with with really young kids it’s about stimulation

and that’s really where so things like children will have trouble with things like maths and

English not because they haven’t started academic study early enough. It’s not

because of that. It’s because they haven’t they haven’t had enough stimulation. It’s not about starting it early, but I think I still think they

need to know that stuff. But in terms of what you’re saying, I agree.

I don’t know. I don’t think that’s true because you don’t think you need to know not time tables in primary school.

I didn’t really learn when I was when I was growing up. And I feel like I didn’t really I didn’t learn a lot of this

stuff early on. I didn’t do I didn’t study or do anything like that. But I think I had very good

first of all I had like I was surrounded with um first people who like books and that

kind of thing and read so I I would read naturally and I do things like puzzles and stuff like I wouldn’t focus on I

wasn’t focused on oh get the foundation those are those what I mean by foundations. So foundations are

a a concrete understanding of concepts before you move to the abstract. So

children be below five years old, they form a lot of their foundations that basically move them forward later on. So the children that struggle at like 6,

seven, 8 years old, it’s not because they haven’t been working out of a textbook. is because they haven’t built

like they haven’t thought of things like okay just count these blocks and they’re still they’re still learning the foundations I didn’t say it has to be abstract

they’re still they’re still learning the foundations yeah but as in things like division multiplication they’ll they’ll come if

if they’ve got good grounding in those other things they all naturally build because it just is how the world is is

built if you can it’s like something that I notice a lot is a lot of the time

if if a child doesn’t have a firm grasp of those concrete things, they can’t really understand the concept of

multiplication or division or anything like that. Like more division especially. Yeah. More complex things.

Well, it’s cuz you got to extrapolate from that concrete understand. Okay.

That that information and knowledge can be applied to this situation.

But they can’t apply that idea. And that’s a lot of the time not because of

studying like not studying enough. It’s because they’re not they don’t have foundations. They don’t really have an

understanding or concept of of say the word share for instance or whatever. It’s more about that sort of stuff.

So are you agreeing with me or you know I can’t tell.

No. Do you know do do you agree that that a well-rounded child that has the like some foundation knowledge at like

four, five, six, seven, eight years old Yeah.

is going to outperform someone that doesn’t later on.

Yeah. No. Yeah. All you every time. Yeah. You agree.

Let kids be kids (and why forced study can backfire)

Depends what you mean by foundations like but I think like children should be essentially children should be left to be kids until they’re a bit older.

So I agree. No, I actually I agree with that. I definitely agree with that.

I don’t actually agree with like for instance homework for seveny olds, 8 year olds. I’m like I I don’t

we had loads seven years old.

Like part of me is like I didn’t have that. I I did um I don’t think it made makes any

difference. I think it’s very like going going back to what you said before about having different experiences. Um again we mentioned about how malleable Mhm.

the the child’s brain is at that age. Yeah.

You create new new neurons are created by novel experiences.

Mhm.

That’s how they’re created. So when a child is playing or whatever they’re figuring out how one thing interacts with another. Yeah.

They’re figuring out the world around them. Those things are creating new connections. I

do agree that they should be left to to play for a lot longer. Yeah, I believe in, you know,

we did an episode about play play being Well, we had that learning.

We had that thing about unstructured play.

Yeah. Yeah, it was in that episode and I I think actually as a child I was kind of left to my own devices a lot of the time.

So, I had a lot of unstructured I had quite a lot of unstructured play and I think Yeah. Oh, in terms of play. Yeah.

And I think that led I think that led to like a lot of good things later on in terms of my ability

to problem solve because it was just you know well again you can apply one concept elsewhere. Mhm.

That’s one of the key signs of intelligence is that you know something here.

Can that be applied to this thing that’s completely unrelated to creatively solve a problem?

Yeah. But I think when you get a child very young, especially a boy or something like, and they just they can

just grow to hate study and just grow to hate learning because I I didn’t enjoy it. Yeah. I do things like cream and work.

I liked I was a bit different because I liked that sort of stuff. Like I liked sitting down and you know there was like

verbal reasoning. I didn’t wasn’t even doing 11 plus but I loved those verbal problems. I love that sort of stuff. But

that’s very it’s because I enjoyed words and I enjoyed that sort of stuff and it was like enjoyed Yeah.

things that made me think. And I was the I was the opposite. I like to just go off and build something.

But it’s because I didn’t get forced to do it. Like as in it was just like oh seems to like that like No, but I think that’s just down to interest cuz I Mhm.

I would spend I would spend my entire time building things. Yeah.

out of video cassette tapes and whatever I could find. I would find I would spend all my free time building stuff.

But you could have spent more time doing that and less time studying over a book like and that would have been better probably. Yeah.

For your development.

I think so cuz it would have been what you enjoyed.

Now that doesn’t mean that I think there’s so for instance behavioral things I think those are so like they

need to be structured in because children don’t know how to act just by they don’t know really what’s right and

wrong although there have been like studies with babies being able to work out like oh that’s wrong but there there’s loads of shades of gray within it. Yeah. So, like how to act in public,

how to like it’s not immediately obvious. Like a a baby might be able to work out that it’s probably bad that

that man hit someone with a rock. Like a baby can go, okay, that’s violent or whatever cuz it’s fear. It’s primal. But

then something like, oh, is it okay to like scream in the supermarket at that old man or whatever? It’s less obvious.

So like in those sort of circumstances or how to act in a cafe for instance,

it’s like it’s not obvious how to act and they need to be told early on how to behave and there’s

things like chores as well, they need to shown how to do it, responsibility. Yeah.

But things like play and all that and if they’re not hurting anyone else and and that kind of thing, I think they should

be kind of left to, you know, explore as much as possible. So with books, I I wasn’t like told, “Oh, you’ve got to

read that. You got to read that.” It was like, “Oh, oh, this is good. It’s got dinosaurs or whatever.” Um, and I just

open it and look around. I used to love picking them up and then looking through them and seeing the pictures and reading

stuff that I I enjoyed that. Yeah. So,

but I wouldn’t I wouldn’t sit I wouldn’t sit down and read a novel just off my own back. So, I kind of think like with my own kids, would I insist that okay,

you’re going to do like your half an hour of maths or whatever? I wouldn’t do that until they’re a bit older because when you say a bit older, how old?

Maybe nine, 9, 10. Okay. Um,

so they start to build study habits. But yeah, I think for me, I started that a bit earlier. I’m I’m I’d be like

The efficient learning angle (zone of proximal development)

we’re going to learn the efficient way to do things. We’re not going to like I don’t believe in I think time’s quite

precious and obviously children need a lot of repetition but I think a lot of time is wasted doing things that don’t

necessarily bring the most learning value. And this is my like unique advantage as someone who’s worked with

children for a long time is I know and in education like I know what to work on.

Yeah. There’s the um parents don’t have that. It’s the zone of proximal development.

Yeah. So you want to give something not not too easy that they get bored and give up.

Yeah. Not so hard and out of reach that they get bored and give up, but just past Yeah.

what they’re capable of doing. So they’re constantly sort of reaching.

just that I’ve got I’ve got another diagram. I’ll put it I’ll put it on there.

So I’ I’d re I’d be able to recognize some of those things better than some parents because you know you’ve got you’ve seen it

cuz I I’ve done it so so for so many years. Yeah.

But I I I I think that’s the main thing my like it does you don’t need to work for an hour a day or something like that. Some of these kids like studying

two three hours. I I just think it’s counterproductive sometimes depending on if the kid really enjoys it then fair enough. But

but then they can they’re exploring it themselves and and and I’ve seen they have a different relationship with that.

I’ve seen it as well like with usually with much older children who actually they they’ll go to the library. They’ll they’ll sit down. They’ll enjoy

studying. They’ll they’ll it almost seems like an incredible amount of work,

but it’s coming from inside. It’s like that learning is coming from inside. At times in my life, I’ve had that too. Um

where I’ve just really wanted to learn something and I’ve kind of gone out of my way to do it. Um I think children

need to know if they can be as indep independent as possible in their study. That’s really not everyone can.

That’s the thing. I wasn’t very good at doing that especially early on. Might be confidence based too.

Yeah, in some in some cases I guess like ch children if they struggle with something a lot they just don’t like

doing it. Obviously pushing through that is a challenge in of itself. But helping

your child, teaching your child small lessons about persistence early on,

it doesn’t necessarily have to just be about study.

Again, it has to be applied to other areas.

Persistence: why chores teach better than worksheets

It’s like um what’s the best way to teach someone teach a child about um sort of doing something that they don’t

really want to do and then persistent at it. I think something like chores is better than academic work. Like they’ve

got the satisfaction of seeing it complete is it is much easier to see the cause and effect. So to actually teach

them the lesson of you know um working hard at something even though you don’t really want to do

it but it’s kind of necessary obligation and that kind of thing. teaching them that those lessons I think are easier

done through like more physical things and then they can they take that life lesson as it were and then they can

apply it to you know school study and whatever and then it’s easier than just going oh read the book or whatever like it it just

it I don’t think that works like you you kind of because it’s it’s so hard to see with

academic learning it’s so hard to see the consequences of It takes more concrete. Yeah. Back to that again.

So, that’s what I do. But I’m not a parent. I know things. I’ll probably be like, “Okay, you’re you’re two. It’s

time that you start doing algebra or whatever.” But I think

from my understanding is better not to force it.

Wrap up

So, I hope you found this month’s episode useful. Um, if you are if you have any questions firstly, you can drop it down in the comments below if you’re watching on YouTube. And did you know

you can now watch the episodes on Apple and Spotify? So, wherever you’re watching or listening, don’t forget to give us a follow and a rating and a a comment if you’re able to do that on

your platform. And we’ll see you back again next month.

The Education Lounge podcast.